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> We see this a lot in Japan, by the way -- Silicon Valley companies come here, and engage in what I would say are aggressive levels of cultural ignorance. Any

> We see this a lot in Japan, by the way -- Silicon Valley companies come here, and engage in what I would say are aggressive levels of cultural ignorance. Any concrete example of this? I'm working in Tokyo right now and I see Japanese companies pretty much engage in anything SV throws this way (stuff like apple, slack, uber eats, github etc etc).

donw 6y ago
Sure! Apple is a bit of an exception because they created a completely new market -- the smartphone. Japanese companies move slowly, and are hobbled by design-by-committee, so their response to new market entrants is... leisurely. I'm not sure how that will play out long-term. We'll see where Apple is in twenty years. And Macs are very uncommon, compared to Windows PCs. SV tech tends to show up at startups, often started by Westerners that have moved here. That's a common pattern, and if you're in the foreigner bubble, it can be hard to notice. But in the rest of Japan? Slack? I'm not sure I actually know any Japanese companies that use it, and the market statistics don't show a lot of grip outside of the US/EU. Uber Eats is doing well! Especially with COVID-19. But that's after Uber fell totally flat launching here in Japan. And it remains to be seen if they can hold on to their lead. It took Uber years of flailing around when they first arrived here, during which they ignored advice like "Japanese taxis are super safe" and "Thumbing your nose at regulators here isn't going to work like it does in the US." Line totally dominates Japanese instant messaging. It's the WeChat of Japan. Facebook didn't really understand Japanese privacy needs until recently, and I don't see them un-seating Line. Apple Pay is a second-rate payment system in Japan, and doesn't work if you have a foreign credit card. Japanese banking is... complicated. I once had a gym that outright refused to take my monthly payment on a credit card -- until they realized that my bank and their bank didn't have a "relationship". Never in the US was I told that, in order to pay for a service, Wells Fargo first needed to take USAA out for dinner and a movie. Anyhow, Meetup never caught on here, because they didn't understand the market. Gap is around, but they never felt like a major player in the fashion space. None of the education offerings in the US have any traction here. OpenTable? Nope. You use TableCheck if you want a reservation somewhere. Overall, I don't see any of the companies on this list[1] having any traction at all here, outside of major players which (a) have invested billions; and (b) took years to understand the local market well enough to adapt their offerings. And even then... Google still has to to advertise in Japan, and I strongly suspect that Google Maps plays second fiddle to Norikae. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_based_in_the_San_Francisco_Bay_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_based_in_the...
- onion2k 6y ago
  Apple is a bit of an exception because they created a completely new market -- the smartphone. I have a drawer full of WindowsCE and PalmOS phones that disagrees with you. Apple improved on the smartphone significantly but they didn't even come close to creating the market. Smartphones had been around for half a decade before the iPhone launched.
  - donw 6y ago
    I'll do you one better -- I have a blue Handspring. :) Mercedes created the first motor vehicle. Ford created the first one that people actually bought and used in real numbers. WindowsCE and Palm did not create the smartphone market. Apple did, by introducing the right product at the right time.
  - orthoxerox 6y ago
    > Apple improved on the smartphone significantly but they didn't even come close to creating the market. Smartphones had been around for half a decade before the iPhone launched. Pre-iPhone smartphones weren't mass market devices. I remember them well. They were handheld PCs with a phone, marketed as productivity devices. iPhone was a leisure device. A music player, a phone and an internet browser in one device. They entered a niche market and turned it into a mass market.
    - onion2k 6y ago
      Pre-iPhone smartphones weren't mass market devices. I'm not arguing with that. I'm saying that there was already a market and what Apple did was help to grow it. They didn't create "create a completely new market". The iPhone didn't even have that big an impact on smartphone sales to start with - https://www.statista.com/statistics/191985/sales-of-smartphones-in-the-us-since-2005/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/191985/sales-of-smartpho... - the growth in 2006 (year before the iPhone launched) is bigger in percentage terms than the following three years combined.
    - starfallg 6y ago
      My Symbian based touchscreen smartphone disagrees with your wanton generalisation.
andreareina 6y ago
Uber trying to compete with Japanese taxis didn't work very well, at least until I left in 2016.
- samwestdev 6y ago
  And what was Uber aggressive levels of cultural ignorance?
  - donw 6y ago
    When Uber came to Japan, they pushed heavily on their three main points: - Uber is convenient. - Uber is safe. - Uber is clean. Japanese taxis are (a) everywhere; (b) probably about the safest form of transport that doesn't have armor plating; and (c) likely cleaner than a Blue Cross operating theater. Moreover, ride-sharing is a non-starter in Japan. People in cities... don't own cars. People outside the city... already have a car.
    - thaumasiotes 6y ago
      > Moreover, ride-sharing is a non-starter in Japan. People in cities... don't own cars. People outside the city... already have a car. I mean, you can make this exact point about the US, but Uber wasn't a non-starter there. You can make it even more strongly about China, where owning a car is pretty expensive, but getting a license plate that allows you to drive the car is prohibitive to nearly everybody. But ride-sharing took off there too. "People in cities don't have cars" is the problem that Uber solves. It's not something that threatens their business, it's something their business depends on.
      - donw 6y ago
        People in US cities do have cars. They're parked everywhere in San Francisco, the streets of New York are filled with them. And not just wealthy people -- if you live in Oakland, Queens, whatever, you likely know somebody with a car. Tokyoites do not own cars. I know a single person in my entire social graph that (a) lives in Tokyo, and (b) has a car. He's wealthy enough to buy a new BMW 5-Series every three years. Licenses are difficult to obtain. Plan USD 2000 plus six months of study and testing. The driving test is difficult. People do have licenses, but they rent a car for longer journeys, and take a taxi (or use the excellent public transit system) for anything in-town. E-bikes are becoming a big thing as well. Not to mention, Japanese culture is closed to strangers. The idea of letting a person you do not know into your car would be like walking into your friend's house with your shoes on: it's just not done.
harpratap 6y ago
You are cherry picking your examples. Uber eats didn't really become popular until the pandemic, I'm not sure if it will even sustain that after things go back to normal because a conbini is good enough most of the times. Uber's ride share never took off in Japan. Slack/Github are tech tools, they don't have much cultural influence because it's not used by general public. Look at iMessage vs Line for example. Or instagram vs Twitter. No lime/bird in Japan, Docomo is trying with Bikeshare since 2011 but it never took off.
- samwestdev 6y ago
  > Uber eats didn't really become popular until the pandemic Maybe it the place where I live (central Tokyo) but Uber eats was always huge even before the pandemic. > iMessage vs Line iMessage doesn't cater to Japanese needs but I fail to see why would iMessage be an example of aggressive levels of cultural ignorance. > instagram vs Twitter they are both SV companies with a huge userbase in Japan. > Docomo is trying with Bikeshare since 2011 but it never took off. Docomo is a Japanese company. I don't know why you included it.
  - donw 6y ago
    Central Tokyo -- Meguro, Ebisu, Roppongi -- are where all of us foreigners live. It's like living in Manhattan, Nob Hill, or Los Gatos. You're pretty insulated from... everybody else. I live on the edge of Tokyo. Uber eats was here occasionally before COVID. They did not effectively exist at all in pre-pandemic Saitama, Kanagawa, Osaka, or Sapporo. Now -- Instagram and Twitter are both companies that succeeded here. Instagram, because Japanese people love taking pictures. I have to wait to eat dinner every day because my wife wants to take a picture of whatever it is I cooked. Twitter is used very differently here than in the US, but I think I'm right in saying that they're the #2 tweetiest nation on Earth.
  - harpratap 6y ago
    > Maybe it the place where I live (central Tokyo) but Uber eats was always huge even before the pandemic. Maybe we have different definition of "huge". I consider things as "huge" when it's become a part of local culture, which Uber eats is far from achieving in Tokyo, let alone Japan. > iMessage doesn't cater to Japanese needs but I fail to see why would iMessage be an example of aggressive levels of cultural ignorance. The east prefers info dense and all-in-one super apps. iMessage is only just starting to do that will Line did it years ago. Emoji was invented in Japan, and it's natural progression - stickers, were introduced much late in iMessage. > they are both SV companies with a huge userbase in Japan. In almost every other country Instagram/Facebook has almost 10x the user base to that of Twitter amongst teenagers, while Japan has more twitter users than Instagram - https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00785/ https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00785/ Here's US for comparison - https://www.statista.com/statistics/250172/social-network-usage-of-us-teens-and-young-adults/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/250172/social-network-us... > Docomo is a Japanese company. I don't know why you included it. I'm also comparing all companies who simply ape SV ideas to replicate in local markets but fail to take in the cultural context.
iaresee 6y ago
Square. Japan was their first international foray. There were visions of the serene design aesthetics of Square clearing the clutter from countless Japanese shops. It was going to be the perfect society to embrace Square’s vision and form for credit card based payments. Guess who has a banking system that’s archaic and runs on faxes? And a society that largely eschews credit and credit cards? It was not the glorious meeting of culture and technology they had envisioned. The pre-launch research was poor. It was a vanity expansion.
fomine3 6y ago
I'd suggest Google Pixel as a example. Pixel 3 was first Pixel in Japan. At launch, they did much advertises but not sold well.

donw 6y ago

Sure! Apple is a bit of an exception because they created a completely new market -- the smartphone. Japanese companies move slowly, and are hobbled by design-by-committee, so their response to new market entrants is... leisurely. I'm not sure how that will play out long-term. We'll see where Apple is in twenty years. And Macs are very uncommon, compared to Windows PCs. SV tech tends to show up at startups, often started by Westerners that have moved here. That's a common pattern, and if you're in the foreigner bubble, it can be hard to notice. But in the rest of Japan? Slack? I'm not sure I actually know any Japanese companies that use it, and the market statistics don't show a lot of grip outside of the US/EU. Uber Eats is doing well! Especially with COVID-19. But that's after Uber fell totally flat launching here in Japan. And it remains to be seen if they can hold on to their lead. It took Uber years of flailing around when they first arrived here, during which they ignored advice like "Japanese taxis are super safe" and "Thumbing your nose at regulators here isn't going to work like it does in the US." Line totally dominates Japanese instant messaging. It's the WeChat of Japan. Facebook didn't really understand Japanese privacy needs until recently, and I don't see them un-seating Line. Apple Pay is a second-rate payment system in Japan, and doesn't work if you have a foreign credit card. Japanese banking is... complicated. I once had a gym that outright refused to take my monthly payment on a credit card -- until they realized that my bank and their bank didn't have a "relationship". Never in the US was I told that, in order to pay for a service, Wells Fargo first needed to take USAA out for dinner and a movie. Anyhow, Meetup never caught on here, because they didn't understand the market. Gap is around, but they never felt like a major player in the fashion space. None of the education offerings in the US have any traction here. OpenTable? Nope. You use TableCheck if you want a reservation somewhere. Overall, I don't see any of the companies on this list[1] having any traction at all here, outside of major players which (a) have invested billions; and (b) took years to understand the local market well enough to adapt their offerings. And even then... Google still has to to advertise in Japan, and I strongly suspect that Google Maps plays second fiddle to Norikae. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_based_in_the_San_Francisco_Bay_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_based_in_the...

onion2k 6y ago
Apple is a bit of an exception because they created a completely new market -- the smartphone. I have a drawer full of WindowsCE and PalmOS phones that disagrees with you. Apple improved on the smartphone significantly but they didn't even come close to creating the market. Smartphones had been around for half a decade before the iPhone launched.
- donw 6y ago
  I'll do you one better -- I have a blue Handspring. :) Mercedes created the first motor vehicle. Ford created the first one that people actually bought and used in real numbers. WindowsCE and Palm did not create the smartphone market. Apple did, by introducing the right product at the right time.
- orthoxerox 6y ago
  > Apple improved on the smartphone significantly but they didn't even come close to creating the market. Smartphones had been around for half a decade before the iPhone launched. Pre-iPhone smartphones weren't mass market devices. I remember them well. They were handheld PCs with a phone, marketed as productivity devices. iPhone was a leisure device. A music player, a phone and an internet browser in one device. They entered a niche market and turned it into a mass market.
  - onion2k 6y ago
    Pre-iPhone smartphones weren't mass market devices. I'm not arguing with that. I'm saying that there was already a market and what Apple did was help to grow it. They didn't create "create a completely new market". The iPhone didn't even have that big an impact on smartphone sales to start with - https://www.statista.com/statistics/191985/sales-of-smartphones-in-the-us-since-2005/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/191985/sales-of-smartpho... - the growth in 2006 (year before the iPhone launched) is bigger in percentage terms than the following three years combined.
  - starfallg 6y ago
    My Symbian based touchscreen smartphone disagrees with your wanton generalisation.

andreareina 6y ago

Uber trying to compete with Japanese taxis didn't work very well, at least until I left in 2016.

samwestdev 6y ago
And what was Uber aggressive levels of cultural ignorance?
- donw 6y ago
  When Uber came to Japan, they pushed heavily on their three main points: - Uber is convenient. - Uber is safe. - Uber is clean. Japanese taxis are (a) everywhere; (b) probably about the safest form of transport that doesn't have armor plating; and (c) likely cleaner than a Blue Cross operating theater. Moreover, ride-sharing is a non-starter in Japan. People in cities... don't own cars. People outside the city... already have a car.
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    > Moreover, ride-sharing is a non-starter in Japan. People in cities... don't own cars. People outside the city... already have a car. I mean, you can make this exact point about the US, but Uber wasn't a non-starter there. You can make it even more strongly about China, where owning a car is pretty expensive, but getting a license plate that allows you to drive the car is prohibitive to nearly everybody. But ride-sharing took off there too. "People in cities don't have cars" is the problem that Uber solves. It's not something that threatens their business, it's something their business depends on.
    - donw 6y ago
      People in US cities do have cars. They're parked everywhere in San Francisco, the streets of New York are filled with them. And not just wealthy people -- if you live in Oakland, Queens, whatever, you likely know somebody with a car. Tokyoites do not own cars. I know a single person in my entire social graph that (a) lives in Tokyo, and (b) has a car. He's wealthy enough to buy a new BMW 5-Series every three years. Licenses are difficult to obtain. Plan USD 2000 plus six months of study and testing. The driving test is difficult. People do have licenses, but they rent a car for longer journeys, and take a taxi (or use the excellent public transit system) for anything in-town. E-bikes are becoming a big thing as well. Not to mention, Japanese culture is closed to strangers. The idea of letting a person you do not know into your car would be like walking into your friend's house with your shoes on: it's just not done.

harpratap 6y ago

You are cherry picking your examples. Uber eats didn't really become popular until the pandemic, I'm not sure if it will even sustain that after things go back to normal because a conbini is good enough most of the times. Uber's ride share never took off in Japan. Slack/Github are tech tools, they don't have much cultural influence because it's not used by general public. Look at iMessage vs Line for example. Or instagram vs Twitter. No lime/bird in Japan, Docomo is trying with Bikeshare since 2011 but it never took off.

samwestdev 6y ago
> Uber eats didn't really become popular until the pandemic Maybe it the place where I live (central Tokyo) but Uber eats was always huge even before the pandemic. > iMessage vs Line iMessage doesn't cater to Japanese needs but I fail to see why would iMessage be an example of aggressive levels of cultural ignorance. > instagram vs Twitter they are both SV companies with a huge userbase in Japan. > Docomo is trying with Bikeshare since 2011 but it never took off. Docomo is a Japanese company. I don't know why you included it.
- donw 6y ago
  Central Tokyo -- Meguro, Ebisu, Roppongi -- are where all of us foreigners live. It's like living in Manhattan, Nob Hill, or Los Gatos. You're pretty insulated from... everybody else. I live on the edge of Tokyo. Uber eats was here occasionally before COVID. They did not effectively exist at all in pre-pandemic Saitama, Kanagawa, Osaka, or Sapporo. Now -- Instagram and Twitter are both companies that succeeded here. Instagram, because Japanese people love taking pictures. I have to wait to eat dinner every day because my wife wants to take a picture of whatever it is I cooked. Twitter is used very differently here than in the US, but I think I'm right in saying that they're the #2 tweetiest nation on Earth.
- harpratap 6y ago
  > Maybe it the place where I live (central Tokyo) but Uber eats was always huge even before the pandemic. Maybe we have different definition of "huge". I consider things as "huge" when it's become a part of local culture, which Uber eats is far from achieving in Tokyo, let alone Japan. > iMessage doesn't cater to Japanese needs but I fail to see why would iMessage be an example of aggressive levels of cultural ignorance. The east prefers info dense and all-in-one super apps. iMessage is only just starting to do that will Line did it years ago. Emoji was invented in Japan, and it's natural progression - stickers, were introduced much late in iMessage. > they are both SV companies with a huge userbase in Japan. In almost every other country Instagram/Facebook has almost 10x the user base to that of Twitter amongst teenagers, while Japan has more twitter users than Instagram - https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00785/ https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00785/ Here's US for comparison - https://www.statista.com/statistics/250172/social-network-usage-of-us-teens-and-young-adults/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/250172/social-network-us... > Docomo is a Japanese company. I don't know why you included it. I'm also comparing all companies who simply ape SV ideas to replicate in local markets but fail to take in the cultural context.

iaresee 6y ago

Square. Japan was their first international foray. There were visions of the serene design aesthetics of Square clearing the clutter from countless Japanese shops. It was going to be the perfect society to embrace Square’s vision and form for credit card based payments. Guess who has a banking system that’s archaic and runs on faxes? And a society that largely eschews credit and credit cards? It was not the glorious meeting of culture and technology they had envisioned. The pre-launch research was poor. It was a vanity expansion.

fomine3 6y ago

I'd suggest Google Pixel as a example. Pixel 3 was first Pixel in Japan. At launch, they did much advertises but not sold well.