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The French Army Is Building Renaissance-Style Fortresses in Africa
- viewbase 6y agoSo... nobody is going to ask why is the French Army in Africa?
- ramblerman 6y agoIf you want to frame your outrage, Africa is a continent. This is mainly about Mali and its fight against Al Qaida/ISIS. France sent troops in with UN support in 2013 after a plea for help from the Malinese government (1) That government was overthrown by the "National Committee for the Salvation of the People" very recently (2) so it's hard to say what the future holds, and if they should remain there. Most of the west (including the US) is not too excited about the new leadership though. 1) https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/35863/the-french-army-is-building-renaissance-style-fortresses-in-africa https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/35863/the-french-army-... 2) https://www.voanews.com/africa/france-keeping-close-eye-mali-after-coup https://www.voanews.com/africa/france-keeping-close-eye-mali...
- tzs 6y agoIt's mentioned in the second paragraph of the article.
- galacticaactual 6y agoLiterally in second paragraph.
- CptFribble 6y agoMali and the surrounding countries were a French colonial territory for about 80 years from the late-19th through mid-20th centuries. France has maintained relationships with its former colonies in West Africa, and frequently performs counter-terrorism operations there. Some local West Africans are OK with it, others are not. A 2016 attack on a beach resort in Côte d'Ivoire was claimed by the attackers (AQIM - Al'Qaeda in the Islamic Magreb), to be directly because of the foreign presence in West Africa, and the beach resort was targeted specifically because it is popular with foreigners (4 of the 19 killed were French). France's history in West Africa is complicated but it's probably because of that history that they continue to operate there.
- fock 6y agothere's also the Francs CFA, meaning that these countries non-shadow economy is - in effect - still managed by France...
- lgeorget 6y agoWhat do you mean by "managed" exactly?
- Rexxar 6y agoI don't know what he means exactly but the main consequence is that the Franc CFA is pegged to the Euro. It has a big impact but I wouldn't call this "managing their economy".
- lgeorget 6y agoI would say it has its advantages and issues but in any case, it's not being imposed on any country. Many have chosen not to use it.
- MagnumOpus 6y agoBecause people follow the news and know about the UN mandate that the French forces (and all the other Europeans there) are enforcing.
- bjelkeman-again 6y agoThey aren’t part of the UN force MINUSMA based in Mali though, afaik. https://peacekeeping.un.org/en/mission/minusma https://peacekeeping.un.org/en/mission/minusma
- nxc18 6y agoThe Economist has lots of coverage of the Sahel and the ongoing developments in Mali. It’s one of the few mainstream publications with significant coverage of that issue available in the US. They’ve got a bunch of podcasts that largely cover the content of their articles, with the voices of reporters and occasionally primary source recordings mixed in, all available for free. Worth checking out for sure. Now I’m wondering, does anyone else have good resources for coverage of the Sahel or other international interests outside the US’s 24-hour news cycle?
- hackermailman 6y agogoogle scholar https://academic.oup.com/fpa/article-abstract/14/1/1/2625523?redirectedFrom=fulltext https://academic.oup.com/fpa/article-abstract/14/1/1/2625523... is one such example or https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03066150.2018.1474457 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03066150.2018.1... 'Why do pastoralists in Mali join jihadist groups? A political ecological explanation' on the right side dozens more articles about the political and economic state of Mali and surrounding areas type those doi numbers into sci-hub to read them, also this is the 'real' economist: https://academic.oup.com/ej https://academic.oup.com/ej like their study on mandatory conscription and criminal behavior afterwards https://academic.oup.com/ej/article/129/622/2522/5490322?searchresult=1 https://academic.oup.com/ej/article/129/622/2522/5490322?sea... when released from the military these groups find no upwards mobility, so use their skills for crime.
- yread 6y agoSimilar concept, lot more stars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Bourtange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Bourtange
- capableweb 6y agoActually not similar, only the shape is similar. The trick with the "trace italienne" is that each tower (edge of the star) can reach and attack people below the other towers, so each tower is protected by its neighbors. As far as I can tell, Fort Bourtange never had towers for defense but rather relied on it's walls to protect it enough.
- dmoo 6y agohttp://www.sites-vauban.org/The-Vauban-fortifications-in http://www.sites-vauban.org/The-Vauban-fortifications-in
- fmajid 6y agoAlso worth visiting when travel reopens: https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/musee-des-plans-reliefs-1 https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/musee-des-plans-reliefs-...
- roenxi 6y ago> While the design ... appears anachronistic Nothing anachronistic about it; this is likely an optimal design when considering how to maximise the effective coverage of guns. This is good design for a fortification that is meant to be held. This design is relatively quite modern and is a direct response to the introduction of artillery to warfare. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gunpowder#Changes_to_fortifications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gunpowder#Changes_t... . It is a difficult fortification to crack. In fact it has a long history of use in colonial expeditions according to Wikipedia.
- masklinn 6y agoIt's anachronistic in the sense that it was largely made obsolete by artillery advances during the 19th century, replaced by polygonal forts (which could even adapt to high-explosive payloads, and actually proved their worth in both world wars), as well as the more modern bunkers & fortified emplacements. It makes a lot of sense when unlikely to face artillery and bombers though, as it's pretty straightforward and cheap to build and operate. But it is a throwback to something which has largely become decorative in the lands or originate from.
- wffurr 6y agoThe decorative aspect is actually a major piece of it's function here. It's intended to be highly visible, and maintaining a highly visible military presence is part of counterinsurgency tactics. It's also a very French thing to do.
- omginternets 6y agoIt’s also in a theater of asymmetric warfare. It’s not like the enemy has (serious) artillery, much less air power.
- Cthulhu_ 6y agoYup, this architecture makes sure you have gun coverage for all your walls, in case people try to get close to them / scale the walls.
- tome 6y agoAm I missing something or is this article very short on photos? I can see only three of the actually fortification under discussion, none of them particularly enlightening.
- wittyreference 6y agoWhat I gleaned from the article was that the French only released a handful of non-security-compromising photos (eg, closeup of a flag raising), and the author padded out the remainder of the article with drawings and pictures of other forts.
- rjsw 6y agoOther nations built castles in Afghanistan using the same HESCO bastion [1] techniques shown in the article, don't think they were as interesting shapes though. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesco_bastion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesco_bastion
- gonzo41 6y agoYeah they were usually just a boring circle. But there was a time around 2007 in Iraq I traveled through a combat outpost that was made with 15 meter high concrete walls and had turrets (which also held guns) on 4 sides. It was a proper little castle. Though the enemy in Iraq did have a lot of mortars so the patrols stationed did see causalities from indirect fire.
- jack_riminton 6y agoYes our patrol base in Afghanistan was made partly of these and partly of the adobe mud walls of the compound we were in. This shape would've been really useful, as on more than one occasion people were able to sneak up by utilising the visibility dead-zones
- zeckalpha 6y agoNo mention of the Pentagon?
- speedgoose 6y agoWhy would you mention it? It's not the same shape if you haven't noticed.
- slim 6y agoOn the same vein, US embassy in Tunis is closer to a fortification than to a diplomatic building. It even has a turret. It seems that other US embassies around the world became fortifications after 2001.
- notauser 6y agoDiplomatic buildings have often been strong points designed to keep staff safe in uncertain times. This is true even in safer locations; the new US embassy in London is very much a fort although the defensive features (like the water-filled moat/pond, and bollards hidden in the hedges) are well integrated into the landscaping. The new site is probably considerably harder to assault than their old building, even though that looked more like a military building. The Grovesnor Square building was so ugly that even the official picture on the US Embassy website tries to hide it from view behind some trees! https://uk.usembassy.gov/our-relationship/policy-history/rcgrsvnr/ https://uk.usembassy.gov/our-relationship/policy-history/rcg...
- scatters 6y agoSome people are unable to recognize great architecture when they see it. Saarinen's building is applauded as one of the finest modernist structures in Britain and is rightly Grade II listed. https://www.economist.com/prospero/2017/09/26/the-american-embassy-building-in-london-is-a-modernist-classic https://www.economist.com/prospero/2017/09/26/the-american-e...
- throwanem 6y agoSome people are unable to recognize awful architecture when they see it. I like a lot of Saarinen's work, especially his furniture, but even Homer nods, and his Grosvenor Square building looks like a cinderblock with a grudge.
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- bergstromm466 6y ago
- 082349872349872 6y agoSaint Barbara is entirely appropriate for a sapper[1] regiment, but it's disappointing their motto is "Sapeur suis, para demeure" instead of "Bâtis ou crève" ... Nous croyions nous aimer pour la vie Mais hélas les beaux jours sont si courts [1] would their work be considered uncivil engineering?
- diminish 6y agoEuropean Renaissance civilization... And noone is asking what the french are doing there.
- TheGallopedHigh 6y agoIt says so in the article if you care to read it.
- rumanator 6y agoPlease don't let the fact that you didn't bothered to read the article you're commenting on stop you from accessing the information you never bothered to search. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgency_in_the_Maghreb_(2002%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgency_in_the_Maghreb_(200...
- Jugurtha 6y agoFor those interested, you can look up "Vauban" or "Vauban fortifications", in reference to Sébastien Le Prestre de Vauban, an important military figure under Louis XIV.
- khuey 6y agoIf you're ever in the Florida Keys Fort Jefferson in the Dry Tortugas National Park is a (never completed) fort in the same style and definitely worth visiting on a day with good weather.
- dewey 6y agoThere's also a picture of that one in the article.
- twright 6y agoThis article doesn’t mention the months of protests in Mali which culminated in a coup d'état on the 18th forcing the president to resign. Yes, it’s a cool construction, it likely does serve Operation Barkhane but I think there are some unmentioned colonial interests.
- godelzilla 6y ago> The work was undertaken as part of Operation Barkhane, France’s military effort in the Sahel region It's just a "military effort" by France in Africa. They're fighting terror! Please don't ruin everybody's fun with facts and historical context.
- Red-Ted 6y agoA lot of work to build all that to put a white flag atop it!
- WilTimSon 6y agoHow practical are these against modern weapons? Couldn't some modern explosives just destroy a fortress wall, thus rendering its inherent purpose of withstanding a siege impossible? It's an interesting sight and architecturally curious but I'm wondering what the purpose of such an effort is.
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- kevin_thibedeau 6y agoWhy destroy the wall when it traps valuable equipment that you can lob explosive shells at.
- fock 6y agolobbing explosive shells into that need's at least a mortar, which at least needs rudimentary setup, which means you are dead a short time after firing your shell.
- svachalek 6y agoAssuming "modern weapons" means light arms carried by modern infantry: These are different from a castle. If the enemy makes a mad rush for the breach, they're going to get cut down by your guns, so the walls are more to provide cover from enemy fire than to physically keep them out. Assuming "modern weapons" means bombers, tanks, cruise missiles: this is not going to stop them at all.
- jack_riminton 6y agoThey're basically the most effective, quick defence to put up (a somewhat long but informative British army video on the effects of small arms on various walls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j31Crn-y6tM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j31Crn-y6tM) They'll withstand most SVBIED (Suicide Vehicle Born Improvised Explosive Devices) attacks. And incase one Hesco barrier is not enough, several are usually used to create sufficient thickness. So for a counter-insurgency war such as this in Mali, yes you couldn't get better
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- codekansas 6y agoThe latest edition of the Economist had an article about the recent coup in Mali, and about the (rather obvious) need for institution-building rather than pure military interventions by European powers: https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2020/08/19/what-next-for-mali https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2020/08/19/... Mostly unrelatedly, whenever I see these types of forts I am reminded of the forts that workers build in Civ 5, which are equally useless
- ArkVark 6y agoIf those institutions are completely staffed and run by Europeans, protected by European security forces, you will jumpstart the development of the country by several decades.
- aborsy 6y agoIt’s interesting that the most socialist states pursue exactly the same objectives that the most capitalistic states pursue outside their national borders, often involving war, violence and exploitation. The discourse internally is however one of solidarity, fraternity and equality.
- KONAir 6y agoIt is not interesting at all if Stalins and Hitlers ghosts are still haunting, it would have been odd if d'Gaulles ghost wasn't around.
- amai 6y agoRelevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastion_fort#/media/File:StarFortDeadZones.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastion_fort#/media/File:StarF...