4 ms·

I understand your point for the most part, but the argument isn't that you have to build exactly what Walmart has (hundreds of buildings with mass distribution)

by gleenn 6y ago

I understand your point for the most part, but the argument isn't that you have to build exactly what Walmart has (hundreds of buildings with mass distribution). Any Joe can setup a grocery/goods store tomorrow. Will they crush Walmart any time soon? Nope. Good luck trying to build what Tesla has. Call me a fanboy, but there is some amazing technology in those cars, and while strapping a battery on a frame with a electric motor looks easy, doing it at scale and as efficiently as they do is definitely not. Many of those 37 or whatever Chinese knock-offs have failed already. I would never buy a knock-off electric car, but I would definitely shop at Joe's convenience store to pick up some bananas, I do it daily actually.

01100011 6y ago
I'd actually buy a cheap Chinese electric car. I wouldn't consider a Tesla. It lacks the range I need in my primary vehicle and is too expensive for a second commuter car. Tesla's are amazing and good for them but it's not what I need or want. People are valuing Tesla like there will be one in every garage, but I just don't see it happening.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > I'd actually buy a cheap Chinese electric car. No you wouldn't, just buy a Chinese scooter (sub $1500) and see how much of a headache their electronics are on something you need for transportation. They make EV ones, too, which would probably be the best gauge with its limited range. Its a horrible experience, they honestly have no QA/QC to speak of in their vehicle division(s) they just build and ship them like that in masse, its so wasteful as they will most likely end up in a landfill when problems arise as they're priced at near disposable level. They may have processors and subsequently phone's down, but the amount of errors on an EV would make me want to drive the thing into a wall. As for the Tesla stock price, I think its pretty high given where they are in terms of CURRENT scale. I put a deposit down for a Cybertruck knowing full well its QA-QC won't be sorted until 1-3 years after the release as its an entire new chassis, but those funds help make that happens and even in the interim they're pretty good about repairs/returns provided they can get the parts for them. Its stock price is am indication of just another way to park hot money in the economy, at least its going into something of actual value and helping the environment rather than inflating another commodities bubbles that fomented war and revolution all of the World, as we saw in 2008. It may not be rationale given the constraints of their CURRENT production capacity, but their Manufacturing presence in 3 different continents and their supercharger network alone didn't seemed priced in with its stock at below $500 in my opinion. I told people to buy more during the 'Bankwupt' joke at mid 200s, Elon is a total troll Online/Twitter but I've been in the Auto Industry for quite some time and went to Interview several times at the factory in Fremont and they are not a car company, they seem more like an Electrical/Battery manufacturer that uses cars to sell its core product(s). The guys I met with in the Supply Chain are the real deal, once the constraints of Model 3 lines and ramp up happened what they undertook was nothing short of immense. I hope the guys at the factory are slowly cashing out some of their positions as the Manufacturing guys are not paid very well and this money after the shut down is probably needed.
  - 01100011 6y ago
    The 'Chinese junk' meme is pretty tired at this point. I've bought plenty of stuff from China that worked just fine. An electric car without self-driving or pointless infotainment isn't all that hard to make. It's some basic car components, some motors and a battery, more or less. I've got an EE background and I don't see anything that would keep them from making a cheap car with short range. If it passes safety testing and is approved for sale in the US then I'm all in.
    - Melting_Harps 6y ago
      > The 'Chinese junk' meme is pretty tired at this point. Buy the EV scooter, and put your money where your mouth is and post your progress as you use it (and only it) as a daily then. I'll gladly take back my words if you make it work. It may work temporarily and intermittently, but it's unreliability is what underscores that 'meme' to me. > It's some basic car components, some motors and a battery, more or less. Yes, but the notion of making it reliable is something that is simply not in the Chinese DNA of Manufacturing. Cutting corners everywhere and mass producing and saturating the Market with an inferior, albeit low priced, compromised product is what takes precedence and stealing the IP to mass produce an imitation isn't the same as developing something with your own in-house RD department and then refining and iterating as you ID problems and address them as you scale up production. Because with Chinese products once its shipped, its 'out of sight, out of mind.' But, I don't have an EE degree so I'd like to see this challenge be met. I was however a privateer driver and mechanic in Motorsports since I was 16 until my mid 20s and spent quite a bit of my Auto career in 2 of 3 of Germany's Big 3 Manufactures in various roles onward after that--VW and BMW which are also known to be plagued with unreliable electronics. And then went to Nissan (which his what I drove/worked on all along) after that, so I know how to diagnose and wrench. A trend you should notice is how I followed the EV program development/transition of each manufacturer. And those 'basic components' like batteries are something even Nissan Japan couldn't get right for nearly the first decade of the Leaf program and have only recently been able to achieve better reliability due to the arduous, and tireless refinement process as they were the first mover in the Industry. I doubt anything with 4 wheels, EV and Made in China is going to make it to the US right now, and rightly so, given the current stance (which is still incredibly weak in my opinion) on the CCP. So 2 wheels will have to do. Clarity: I'm not a protectionist and I'm actually a staunch proponent of Free Markets, what I'm not in favour of is the CCP which is anything but Free Market.
Element_ 6y ago
Isn't VW now producing 2 fully electric cars at scale based on their new electric platform? I think the ID3 is shipping to customers in Europe already or in the near future.
- Tade0 6y ago
  Yes, but while those are somewhat cheaper than the Model 3, they don't match it on range, power and efficiency. Also they are somewhat delayed because someone figured that it would be a good idea to create a lot of new software(a whole new OS?) specifically for this car.

by gleenn 6y ago

01100011 6y ago

I'd actually buy a cheap Chinese electric car. I wouldn't consider a Tesla. It lacks the range I need in my primary vehicle and is too expensive for a second commuter car. Tesla's are amazing and good for them but it's not what I need or want. People are valuing Tesla like there will be one in every garage, but I just don't see it happening.

Melting_Harps 6y ago
> I'd actually buy a cheap Chinese electric car. No you wouldn't, just buy a Chinese scooter (sub $1500) and see how much of a headache their electronics are on something you need for transportation. They make EV ones, too, which would probably be the best gauge with its limited range. Its a horrible experience, they honestly have no QA/QC to speak of in their vehicle division(s) they just build and ship them like that in masse, its so wasteful as they will most likely end up in a landfill when problems arise as they're priced at near disposable level. They may have processors and subsequently phone's down, but the amount of errors on an EV would make me want to drive the thing into a wall. As for the Tesla stock price, I think its pretty high given where they are in terms of CURRENT scale. I put a deposit down for a Cybertruck knowing full well its QA-QC won't be sorted until 1-3 years after the release as its an entire new chassis, but those funds help make that happens and even in the interim they're pretty good about repairs/returns provided they can get the parts for them. Its stock price is am indication of just another way to park hot money in the economy, at least its going into something of actual value and helping the environment rather than inflating another commodities bubbles that fomented war and revolution all of the World, as we saw in 2008. It may not be rationale given the constraints of their CURRENT production capacity, but their Manufacturing presence in 3 different continents and their supercharger network alone didn't seemed priced in with its stock at below $500 in my opinion. I told people to buy more during the 'Bankwupt' joke at mid 200s, Elon is a total troll Online/Twitter but I've been in the Auto Industry for quite some time and went to Interview several times at the factory in Fremont and they are not a car company, they seem more like an Electrical/Battery manufacturer that uses cars to sell its core product(s). The guys I met with in the Supply Chain are the real deal, once the constraints of Model 3 lines and ramp up happened what they undertook was nothing short of immense. I hope the guys at the factory are slowly cashing out some of their positions as the Manufacturing guys are not paid very well and this money after the shut down is probably needed.
- 01100011 6y ago
  The 'Chinese junk' meme is pretty tired at this point. I've bought plenty of stuff from China that worked just fine. An electric car without self-driving or pointless infotainment isn't all that hard to make. It's some basic car components, some motors and a battery, more or less. I've got an EE background and I don't see anything that would keep them from making a cheap car with short range. If it passes safety testing and is approved for sale in the US then I'm all in.
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago
    > The 'Chinese junk' meme is pretty tired at this point. Buy the EV scooter, and put your money where your mouth is and post your progress as you use it (and only it) as a daily then. I'll gladly take back my words if you make it work. It may work temporarily and intermittently, but it's unreliability is what underscores that 'meme' to me. > It's some basic car components, some motors and a battery, more or less. Yes, but the notion of making it reliable is something that is simply not in the Chinese DNA of Manufacturing. Cutting corners everywhere and mass producing and saturating the Market with an inferior, albeit low priced, compromised product is what takes precedence and stealing the IP to mass produce an imitation isn't the same as developing something with your own in-house RD department and then refining and iterating as you ID problems and address them as you scale up production. Because with Chinese products once its shipped, its 'out of sight, out of mind.' But, I don't have an EE degree so I'd like to see this challenge be met. I was however a privateer driver and mechanic in Motorsports since I was 16 until my mid 20s and spent quite a bit of my Auto career in 2 of 3 of Germany's Big 3 Manufactures in various roles onward after that--VW and BMW which are also known to be plagued with unreliable electronics. And then went to Nissan (which his what I drove/worked on all along) after that, so I know how to diagnose and wrench. A trend you should notice is how I followed the EV program development/transition of each manufacturer. And those 'basic components' like batteries are something even Nissan Japan couldn't get right for nearly the first decade of the Leaf program and have only recently been able to achieve better reliability due to the arduous, and tireless refinement process as they were the first mover in the Industry. I doubt anything with 4 wheels, EV and Made in China is going to make it to the US right now, and rightly so, given the current stance (which is still incredibly weak in my opinion) on the CCP. So 2 wheels will have to do. Clarity: I'm not a protectionist and I'm actually a staunch proponent of Free Markets, what I'm not in favour of is the CCP which is anything but Free Market.

Element_ 6y ago

Isn't VW now producing 2 fully electric cars at scale based on their new electric platform? I think the ID3 is shipping to customers in Europe already or in the near future.

Tade0 6y ago
Yes, but while those are somewhat cheaper than the Model 3, they don't match it on range, power and efficiency. Also they are somewhat delayed because someone figured that it would be a good idea to create a lot of new software(a whole new OS?) specifically for this car.