4 ms·

I was worried about this. I'm small potatoes but we make an open source app that can connect to self-hosted or paid-hosted services. So if they could have force

by edoceo 6y ago

I was worried about this. I'm small potatoes but we make an open source app that can connect to self-hosted or paid-hosted services. So if they could have forced WP, they could have easily forced me too, now there is a baseline set. To even get approved we had to make sure the App doesn't offer any sign-up or even billing info at all. And still went round and round for approval explaining how paid services, if any, are completely outside Apple realm.

g_p 6y ago
Your post here exemplifies why apple's behaviour is so problematic - you're left trying to adhere to a set of rules that even Apple can't manage to enforce consistently and correctly, facing the risk of having to pay an unexpected 30% tax on sales (and effectively have to raise prices accordingly). Hopefully this logic is enough to get Apple in bother during their antitrust suits and Investigations - it seems quite ironic they are getting into scuffles 2 days before the first hearing in the epic case is scheduled (iirc - for the restraining motion). It would be nice if small businesses and innovators could get on with innovating, rather than ensuring they comply with arcane rent seeking behaviour by a giant that won't let you distribute your app without offering them their cut. Google is little better though here - their old Android market terms even titled a clause "non-competition". Unsurprisingly this has disappeared - I assume this doesn't comply with their "avoiding antitrust" dictionary of banned phrases.
- threeseed 6y ago
  It is not a tax on sales. It is the cost of using their channel to market. If you host the app yourself on your website then how are people going to discover it. For most developers they would buy ads or invest in content or influencer marketing. Those marketing costs are your channel to market and obviously aren't a tax. It's hilarious watching so many people on HN discuss this topic who are completely naive and ignorant to the realities of customer acquisition. Apple and Google hand you customers on a silver platter for the bargain, consistent price of 30%. Whereas as a startup I have to pay much higher to Facebook and Google for PPC ads.
  - mchusma 6y ago
    It's a tax if you bring the customer and do all the work. Which most app developers do. It they charged 3% for customers you bring and 30% for customers they bring, your point would be more valid.
    - renaicirc 6y ago
      His point also misses the fact that Apple obviously denies you the ability to self-distribute.
    - threeseed 6y ago
      Please provide evidence of this. There are millions of app developers and you are saying that most of them are doing customer acquisition external to the App Store ? Because I just did various searches for note taking and productivity apps on my phone and no one is buying ads. From my experience only the larger app developers invest in their own customer acquisition whilst the rest all rely on app discovery.
      - stale2002 6y ago
        > There are millions of app developers and you are saying that most of them are doing customer acquisition external to the App Store ? They can't do customer aquisition external to the App store because Apple prevents them from doing so. Thats the very problem. Apple won't allow other app stores to compete, and you can't just download an app from someone's website, and install it. Apple prevents you from doing so. They don't even offer some hidden setting which says "Allow 3rd party apps, warning, warning, warning, this could make your device less secure".
  - devit 6y ago
    How so? The only "help" that an app store can give you is that your app can show up in search result in the app store. But that's only a problem because customers are used to searching in that app store (and that's because it's the only one on the platform). If there was no app store, customers would search on the web, and it turns out that Google Web Search and Bing don't refuse to link to sites that don't give them 30% commission on sales. Of course PPC ads cost money, but obviously app stores don't let you be a top result on arbitrary searches for free (since obviously that's a limited resource, so it's impossible to do that), so that seems a spurious comparison.
xenospn 6y ago
This is so weird. I've removed and added in-app subscriptions to my app multiple times and never had any problems getting it approved. Even now my app is redirecting users to my website to purchase subscriptions, and never had an issue getting past the review process.
- 7tsfmCAusrQ 6y ago
  Watch out, you are sitting on a ticking time bomb. It's just a matter of time.
  - xenospn 6y ago
    I'm selling physical products so I'm not too worried.

by edoceo 6y ago

g_p 6y ago

Your post here exemplifies why apple's behaviour is so problematic - you're left trying to adhere to a set of rules that even Apple can't manage to enforce consistently and correctly, facing the risk of having to pay an unexpected 30% tax on sales (and effectively have to raise prices accordingly). Hopefully this logic is enough to get Apple in bother during their antitrust suits and Investigations - it seems quite ironic they are getting into scuffles 2 days before the first hearing in the epic case is scheduled (iirc - for the restraining motion). It would be nice if small businesses and innovators could get on with innovating, rather than ensuring they comply with arcane rent seeking behaviour by a giant that won't let you distribute your app without offering them their cut. Google is little better though here - their old Android market terms even titled a clause "non-competition". Unsurprisingly this has disappeared - I assume this doesn't comply with their "avoiding antitrust" dictionary of banned phrases.

threeseed 6y ago
It is not a tax on sales. It is the cost of using their channel to market. If you host the app yourself on your website then how are people going to discover it. For most developers they would buy ads or invest in content or influencer marketing. Those marketing costs are your channel to market and obviously aren't a tax. It's hilarious watching so many people on HN discuss this topic who are completely naive and ignorant to the realities of customer acquisition. Apple and Google hand you customers on a silver platter for the bargain, consistent price of 30%. Whereas as a startup I have to pay much higher to Facebook and Google for PPC ads.
- mchusma 6y ago
  It's a tax if you bring the customer and do all the work. Which most app developers do. It they charged 3% for customers you bring and 30% for customers they bring, your point would be more valid.
  - renaicirc 6y ago
    His point also misses the fact that Apple obviously denies you the ability to self-distribute.
  - threeseed 6y ago
    Please provide evidence of this. There are millions of app developers and you are saying that most of them are doing customer acquisition external to the App Store ? Because I just did various searches for note taking and productivity apps on my phone and no one is buying ads. From my experience only the larger app developers invest in their own customer acquisition whilst the rest all rely on app discovery.
    - stale2002 6y ago
      > There are millions of app developers and you are saying that most of them are doing customer acquisition external to the App Store ? They can't do customer aquisition external to the App store because Apple prevents them from doing so. Thats the very problem. Apple won't allow other app stores to compete, and you can't just download an app from someone's website, and install it. Apple prevents you from doing so. They don't even offer some hidden setting which says "Allow 3rd party apps, warning, warning, warning, this could make your device less secure".
- devit 6y ago
  How so? The only "help" that an app store can give you is that your app can show up in search result in the app store. But that's only a problem because customers are used to searching in that app store (and that's because it's the only one on the platform). If there was no app store, customers would search on the web, and it turns out that Google Web Search and Bing don't refuse to link to sites that don't give them 30% commission on sales. Of course PPC ads cost money, but obviously app stores don't let you be a top result on arbitrary searches for free (since obviously that's a limited resource, so it's impossible to do that), so that seems a spurious comparison.

xenospn 6y ago

This is so weird. I've removed and added in-app subscriptions to my app multiple times and never had any problems getting it approved. Even now my app is redirecting users to my website to purchase subscriptions, and never had an issue getting past the review process.

7tsfmCAusrQ 6y ago
Watch out, you are sitting on a ticking time bomb. It's just a matter of time.
- xenospn 6y ago
  I'm selling physical products so I'm not too worried.