6 ms·

My experience online is most time a guy complains about their frustration in not finding someone there's like zero sympathy... except in places where one probab

by colmvp 6y ago

My experience online is most time a guy complains about their frustration in not finding someone there's like zero sympathy... except in places where one probably don't want to hang out namely misogynistic subreddit/forums. I can totally see why some guys become radicalized when a good portion of society DGAF.

noir_lord 6y ago
Not sure why society should care (beyond preventing people been radicalised into becoming a danger I guess). There are lots of pressures on people to conform in one way or another to goals and ideals that are largely unachievable - none of them are an excuse for driving cars into crowds. From the limited interactions I've seen online most incels don't realise they aren't unattractive physically but by nature of their personality which causes a vicious feedback loop. When I was younger I didn't have a huge amount of success with women (I was by nature shy and introverted, still am to an extent) but I realised early that was my issue and no-one elses, things improved as I matured and became more confident in who and what I am but had they not I'd still have been happy enough - I was for years after all.
- DangitBobby 6y ago
  > Not sure why society should care (beyond preventing people been radicalised into been a danger I guess). Some people are going to be without a partner for life, despite their desire for one. Maybe they are profoundly ugly, or not very smart, just kind of a boring (or annoying) personality, or a mix of the above... It's not always going to be an issue that they can fix. And as a result, they feel unloved and alone, sometimes worthless. It seems pretty obvious to me why society should care about this in more than just the supremely selfish "how does this hurt me" way.
  - claudiawerner 6y ago
    It seems to me that the best help from the individual's perspective would be to consult a therapist, and from a social perspective, to dismantle the idea that one's worth is determined by having sexual partners (and the converse, that some peoples' lack of worth is determined by 'too many' partners). Some (perhaps many, or even most) in the incel community seem to think they are entitled to not only a partner but a partner that will fit a certain specification. I'm all for sympathy and understanding. But what kind of sympathy can regular people give without falling into the logic that everyone is entitled to a partner? How should we prevent that sympathy from turning into pity, which feeds the narrative that there is necessarily something wrong with not having a partner? As a society we are able to do various things that go beyond sympathy for a wide range of individual misfortunes - we can assist the poor (throgh welfare programs and charity), and we can anonymize university applications and make buildings and media accessible to those with physical problems. I think part of why incels don't get much sympathy is because there's nothing society can do about that problem to help any particular individual. It can also be hard to empathise with; everyone has been single at some point, and on the whole, most peoples' experiences dictate that it's probably not as bad as being poor or disabled.
    - noir_lord 6y ago
      > It can also be hard to empathise with; everyone has been single at some point, and on the whole, most peoples' experiences dictate that it's probably not as bad as being poor or disabled. In my experience, it's not remotely close, been poor is far worse than been single.
    - hh3k0 6y ago
      > everyone has been single at some point Yeah but has everyone been single _all of the time_? Your reasoning reminds me of the "suck it up, we all have been bummed out before" mentality toward depressed people. > most peoples' experiences dictate that it's probably not as bad as being poor or disabled. Empathy isn't soap, it won't be spent. You can feel empathy for the poor, the disabled, _and_ the chronically alone.
      - fjdjsmsm 6y ago
        Nowhere did they say they should suck it up. They said they should seek therapy if they can’t deal with it, instead of taking it out on other people.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - philwelch 6y ago
      > from a social perspective, to dismantle the idea that one's worth is determined by having sexual partners Ah, let's just go ahead and "dismantle" one of the most basic psychological needs, that's a great solution.
      - krapp 6y ago
        >> from a social perspective, to dismantle the idea that one's worth is determined by having sexual partners >Ah, let's just go ahead and "dismantle" one of the most basic psychological needs, that's a great solution. Sex itself may be a basic psychological and physiological need (for most people, not for everyone,) but "the idea that one's worth is determined by having sexual partners" is not. The latter is entirely a cultural and social construct. Why would you literally quote one fragment of one sentence from claudiawerner's comment just to misconstrue it entirely in rebuttal?
- paulryanrogers 6y ago
  Another factor could be that women are generally pickier than men. IIRC some OKCupid research indicated that men seek the top 50% of women (by attractiveness) while women seek the top 20% of men. With the Internet making the dating pool larger this may hit men harder if potential partners feel less pressure to 'settle'.
  - noir_lord 6y ago
    Interesting, My partner (of 5 years) I met on OKC and she is objectively more attractive than me. I was however attracted to her because she filled her profile in properly describing her outlook and the things she found interesting and it was grammatically correct (somewhat ironically given she is Hungarian and English is her third language).
    - bena 6y ago
      Outliers exist. That's not news.
- Kalium 6y ago
  > Not sure why society should care (beyond preventing people been radicalised into becoming a danger I guess). What I find most interesting about this reaction is that it often comes from people who wholeheartedly believe in kindness, compassion, and empathy. In almost every other context. Yet for these people, they're told that their feelings don't matter while everyone else's does. No wonder they sometimes react poorly. Perhaps if we want to avert their radicalization, we could consider the possibility of treating them with the same sensitivity we readily offer others when they express subjective pain and suffering.
  - Igelau 6y ago
    > people who wholeheartedly believe in kindness, compassion, and empathy. In almost every other context. Equality of outcome for all animals, but some animals are more equal than others.
  - LandR 6y ago
    It's not that their feelings don't matter, it's that their is nothing anyone can do for them. I'm very ugly, I'm very single. I don't expect anyone to do anything about it for me. You just have to get on with life and make the best of it. Be a nice person and try to enjoy yourself. If the worst thing you have to deal with in life is having a sub-optimal face then you're probably pretty luck! Act like it.
    - Kalium 6y ago
      In my limited personal experience, the emotional journey of "Shut up, nobody cares about your feelings you overprivileged ass" is very different from that of "That sounds very painful, I'm so sorry you're going through that". I'm sure others have had different experiences. As you say, there often isn't anything obviously actionable. It's just that in some cases, for some people, going from nothing actionable to dismissive can be a good way to convince them to find people who at least offer a hint of empathy. Again, you're completely right. There's absolutely nothing anyone can do for them. Except, I think it might be the case that listening with sincerity might be an option.
- philwelch 6y ago
  > Not sure why society should care (beyond preventing people been radicalised into becoming a danger I guess). This carries the implication that some people are just losers in life, so their happiness and welfare should be dismissed as unimportant. This isn't a popular idea in modern Western society, but it's perfectly valid and I would much rather resolve this cultural hypocrisy the other way around.
- spaetzleesser 6y ago
  "Not sure why society should care (beyond preventing people been radicalised into becoming a danger I guess)." We should care because one of the most basic needs is not met for these people. They also don't get much sympathy or help.
  - watwut 6y ago
    There is also question of basic needs of those who would supposedly be partners. Cause interestingly their loneliness is non-existent as far as these debates go - reading loneliness debates one would believe that women unhappy with lack of partners don't exist. But more importantly, basic needs of those who would actually end up in these partnerships - many of those guys throw so many red flags and are so clueless about human communication/relationships, that I just dont see potential for healthy relationship. I am not saying that is reason for lack of partners, there are plenty on dysfunctional relationships out there. But that the prognosis is another hellish relationship.
- at_a_remove 6y ago
  Well, just from a bare instinct of self-preservation: if nobody cares about you, why should you care about anybody? You get enough people together about whom nobody cared and ... what do you think might happen? It's like long-term bullying at school. Ninety-nine percent of the time, the "worst" that happens is that someone is broken and their self-esteem is permanently damaged and everyone else moves on with their lives. But then there is that one percent (or whatever fraction you choose) who snaps and you get some serious carnage out of it. And nobody cared until the lowest-ranked monkey killed a few other monkeys. Then, suddenly, caring.
  - guskel 6y ago
    Scott Alexander was thinking along the same lines here when he wrote "Radicalizing the Romanceless"... almost 6 years ago. https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-roman...
  - watwut 6y ago
    Which one of those who snapped and killed people was otherwise normal just lonely guy without girlfriend? The answer is: not a single one. Literally all of them, if your read their stories in detail, have history of serious mental health and behavioral issues, have history of violence. The have either history of inability to communicate with anyone (as in avoiding people and not talking - and not because they were bullied) or history of mistreating people who try. The nice bullied lonely guy suddenly snapping into carnage is a myth. It does not happen. The nice bullied lonely guy may end up with ptsd and low self esteem and issues, but they don't end up suddenly killing bunch of people.
    - at_a_remove 6y ago
      I spoke from experience, at my junior high school, a kid who was bullied mercilessly shot two of his tormentors and then himself. The administration overlooked the bullying issue at our school and has, ever since, worked very hard to pretend that such a thing never happened, despite the kid getting "swirlies" in toilets that had yet to be flushed. I heard the shots, watched the news crew vans pull up (our first clue that something had gone down), and so forth. It's not a myth.
- dependenttypes 6y ago
  > none of them are an excuse for driving cars into crowds. Certainly but why the generalization? You could not say "none of them are an excuse for bombing people" when talking about discrimination against muslims or would you? > but I realised early that was my issue and no-one elses They issue arises when people are bullied or considered inferior for that.
LandR 6y ago
Why should society give a fuck though? It's not really a problem society can solve for them. Plenty of people have shitty lives, either they can't find a partner because they had the misfortune to be born ugly or maybe they were born with some awful disability, maybe they live in constant physical pain... Most of these people don't become angry bitter sociopaths. What would you expect society to do for them? Is it just sympathy they want?
- mhh__ 6y ago
  Things are improving, but male suicide rates are high for a reason. Society just isn't calibrated to allow men to be as emotional as women. Within every Incel is someone who's life has gone down a dark path. I bet a lot of them are doing it just to belong - having no friends hurts a lot more when you're young, schoolchildren can be really horrible to eachother.
  - tomp 6y ago
    > Society just isn't calibrated to allow men to be as emotional as women. Or maybe men don’t have a need to be as emotional as women? After all, you could easily justify committing suicide as a rational solution to “my life is shit and will never get better”. The fact that women attempt more suicides (plea for help / attention => emotional) whereas men commit more suicides (they’re actually serious in their assessment that living is pointless) also suggests this. Happy to hear opposing arguments / data.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > Why should society give a fuck though? Why should it give a fuck if instead of hungry for love, they're just hungry. Or sick. Or anything other than fine, really. > Most of these people don't become angry bitter sociopaths. Citation needed. The amount of angry bitter sociopaths ranting about all kinds of things suggests that many are. > What would you expect society to do for them? The same society would do for any health issue, be it mental of physical. Help fix it, not belittle, mock and ostracize.
  - 6y ago

by colmvp 6y ago

noir_lord 6y ago

Not sure why society should care (beyond preventing people been radicalised into becoming a danger I guess). There are lots of pressures on people to conform in one way or another to goals and ideals that are largely unachievable - none of them are an excuse for driving cars into crowds. From the limited interactions I've seen online most incels don't realise they aren't unattractive physically but by nature of their personality which causes a vicious feedback loop. When I was younger I didn't have a huge amount of success with women (I was by nature shy and introverted, still am to an extent) but I realised early that was my issue and no-one elses, things improved as I matured and became more confident in who and what I am but had they not I'd still have been happy enough - I was for years after all.

DangitBobby 6y ago
> Not sure why society should care (beyond preventing people been radicalised into been a danger I guess). Some people are going to be without a partner for life, despite their desire for one. Maybe they are profoundly ugly, or not very smart, just kind of a boring (or annoying) personality, or a mix of the above... It's not always going to be an issue that they can fix. And as a result, they feel unloved and alone, sometimes worthless. It seems pretty obvious to me why society should care about this in more than just the supremely selfish "how does this hurt me" way.
- claudiawerner 6y ago
  It seems to me that the best help from the individual's perspective would be to consult a therapist, and from a social perspective, to dismantle the idea that one's worth is determined by having sexual partners (and the converse, that some peoples' lack of worth is determined by 'too many' partners). Some (perhaps many, or even most) in the incel community seem to think they are entitled to not only a partner but a partner that will fit a certain specification. I'm all for sympathy and understanding. But what kind of sympathy can regular people give without falling into the logic that everyone is entitled to a partner? How should we prevent that sympathy from turning into pity, which feeds the narrative that there is necessarily something wrong with not having a partner? As a society we are able to do various things that go beyond sympathy for a wide range of individual misfortunes - we can assist the poor (throgh welfare programs and charity), and we can anonymize university applications and make buildings and media accessible to those with physical problems. I think part of why incels don't get much sympathy is because there's nothing society can do about that problem to help any particular individual. It can also be hard to empathise with; everyone has been single at some point, and on the whole, most peoples' experiences dictate that it's probably not as bad as being poor or disabled.
  - noir_lord 6y ago
    > It can also be hard to empathise with; everyone has been single at some point, and on the whole, most peoples' experiences dictate that it's probably not as bad as being poor or disabled. In my experience, it's not remotely close, been poor is far worse than been single.
  - hh3k0 6y ago
    > everyone has been single at some point Yeah but has everyone been single _all of the time_? Your reasoning reminds me of the "suck it up, we all have been bummed out before" mentality toward depressed people. > most peoples' experiences dictate that it's probably not as bad as being poor or disabled. Empathy isn't soap, it won't be spent. You can feel empathy for the poor, the disabled, _and_ the chronically alone.
    - fjdjsmsm 6y ago
      Nowhere did they say they should suck it up. They said they should seek therapy if they can’t deal with it, instead of taking it out on other people.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - philwelch 6y ago
    > from a social perspective, to dismantle the idea that one's worth is determined by having sexual partners Ah, let's just go ahead and "dismantle" one of the most basic psychological needs, that's a great solution.
    - krapp 6y ago
      >> from a social perspective, to dismantle the idea that one's worth is determined by having sexual partners >Ah, let's just go ahead and "dismantle" one of the most basic psychological needs, that's a great solution. Sex itself may be a basic psychological and physiological need (for most people, not for everyone,) but "the idea that one's worth is determined by having sexual partners" is not. The latter is entirely a cultural and social construct. Why would you literally quote one fragment of one sentence from claudiawerner's comment just to misconstrue it entirely in rebuttal?
paulryanrogers 6y ago
Another factor could be that women are generally pickier than men. IIRC some OKCupid research indicated that men seek the top 50% of women (by attractiveness) while women seek the top 20% of men. With the Internet making the dating pool larger this may hit men harder if potential partners feel less pressure to 'settle'.
- noir_lord 6y ago
  Interesting, My partner (of 5 years) I met on OKC and she is objectively more attractive than me. I was however attracted to her because she filled her profile in properly describing her outlook and the things she found interesting and it was grammatically correct (somewhat ironically given she is Hungarian and English is her third language).
  - bena 6y ago
    Outliers exist. That's not news.
Kalium 6y ago
> Not sure why society should care (beyond preventing people been radicalised into becoming a danger I guess). What I find most interesting about this reaction is that it often comes from people who wholeheartedly believe in kindness, compassion, and empathy. In almost every other context. Yet for these people, they're told that their feelings don't matter while everyone else's does. No wonder they sometimes react poorly. Perhaps if we want to avert their radicalization, we could consider the possibility of treating them with the same sensitivity we readily offer others when they express subjective pain and suffering.
- Igelau 6y ago
  > people who wholeheartedly believe in kindness, compassion, and empathy. In almost every other context. Equality of outcome for all animals, but some animals are more equal than others.
- LandR 6y ago
  It's not that their feelings don't matter, it's that their is nothing anyone can do for them. I'm very ugly, I'm very single. I don't expect anyone to do anything about it for me. You just have to get on with life and make the best of it. Be a nice person and try to enjoy yourself. If the worst thing you have to deal with in life is having a sub-optimal face then you're probably pretty luck! Act like it.
  - Kalium 6y ago
    In my limited personal experience, the emotional journey of "Shut up, nobody cares about your feelings you overprivileged ass" is very different from that of "That sounds very painful, I'm so sorry you're going through that". I'm sure others have had different experiences. As you say, there often isn't anything obviously actionable. It's just that in some cases, for some people, going from nothing actionable to dismissive can be a good way to convince them to find people who at least offer a hint of empathy. Again, you're completely right. There's absolutely nothing anyone can do for them. Except, I think it might be the case that listening with sincerity might be an option.
philwelch 6y ago
> Not sure why society should care (beyond preventing people been radicalised into becoming a danger I guess). This carries the implication that some people are just losers in life, so their happiness and welfare should be dismissed as unimportant. This isn't a popular idea in modern Western society, but it's perfectly valid and I would much rather resolve this cultural hypocrisy the other way around.
spaetzleesser 6y ago
"Not sure why society should care (beyond preventing people been radicalised into becoming a danger I guess)." We should care because one of the most basic needs is not met for these people. They also don't get much sympathy or help.
- watwut 6y ago
  There is also question of basic needs of those who would supposedly be partners. Cause interestingly their loneliness is non-existent as far as these debates go - reading loneliness debates one would believe that women unhappy with lack of partners don't exist. But more importantly, basic needs of those who would actually end up in these partnerships - many of those guys throw so many red flags and are so clueless about human communication/relationships, that I just dont see potential for healthy relationship. I am not saying that is reason for lack of partners, there are plenty on dysfunctional relationships out there. But that the prognosis is another hellish relationship.
at_a_remove 6y ago
Well, just from a bare instinct of self-preservation: if nobody cares about you, why should you care about anybody? You get enough people together about whom nobody cared and ... what do you think might happen? It's like long-term bullying at school. Ninety-nine percent of the time, the "worst" that happens is that someone is broken and their self-esteem is permanently damaged and everyone else moves on with their lives. But then there is that one percent (or whatever fraction you choose) who snaps and you get some serious carnage out of it. And nobody cared until the lowest-ranked monkey killed a few other monkeys. Then, suddenly, caring.
- guskel 6y ago
  Scott Alexander was thinking along the same lines here when he wrote "Radicalizing the Romanceless"... almost 6 years ago. https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-roman...
- watwut 6y ago
  Which one of those who snapped and killed people was otherwise normal just lonely guy without girlfriend? The answer is: not a single one. Literally all of them, if your read their stories in detail, have history of serious mental health and behavioral issues, have history of violence. The have either history of inability to communicate with anyone (as in avoiding people and not talking - and not because they were bullied) or history of mistreating people who try. The nice bullied lonely guy suddenly snapping into carnage is a myth. It does not happen. The nice bullied lonely guy may end up with ptsd and low self esteem and issues, but they don't end up suddenly killing bunch of people.
  - at_a_remove 6y ago
    I spoke from experience, at my junior high school, a kid who was bullied mercilessly shot two of his tormentors and then himself. The administration overlooked the bullying issue at our school and has, ever since, worked very hard to pretend that such a thing never happened, despite the kid getting "swirlies" in toilets that had yet to be flushed. I heard the shots, watched the news crew vans pull up (our first clue that something had gone down), and so forth. It's not a myth.
dependenttypes 6y ago
> none of them are an excuse for driving cars into crowds. Certainly but why the generalization? You could not say "none of them are an excuse for bombing people" when talking about discrimination against muslims or would you? > but I realised early that was my issue and no-one elses They issue arises when people are bullied or considered inferior for that.

LandR 6y ago

Why should society give a fuck though? It's not really a problem society can solve for them. Plenty of people have shitty lives, either they can't find a partner because they had the misfortune to be born ugly or maybe they were born with some awful disability, maybe they live in constant physical pain... Most of these people don't become angry bitter sociopaths. What would you expect society to do for them? Is it just sympathy they want?

mhh__ 6y ago
Things are improving, but male suicide rates are high for a reason. Society just isn't calibrated to allow men to be as emotional as women. Within every Incel is someone who's life has gone down a dark path. I bet a lot of them are doing it just to belong - having no friends hurts a lot more when you're young, schoolchildren can be really horrible to eachother.
- tomp 6y ago
  > Society just isn't calibrated to allow men to be as emotional as women. Or maybe men don’t have a need to be as emotional as women? After all, you could easily justify committing suicide as a rational solution to “my life is shit and will never get better”. The fact that women attempt more suicides (plea for help / attention => emotional) whereas men commit more suicides (they’re actually serious in their assessment that living is pointless) also suggests this. Happy to hear opposing arguments / data.
luckylion 6y ago
> Why should society give a fuck though? Why should it give a fuck if instead of hungry for love, they're just hungry. Or sick. Or anything other than fine, really. > Most of these people don't become angry bitter sociopaths. Citation needed. The amount of angry bitter sociopaths ranting about all kinds of things suggests that many are. > What would you expect society to do for them? The same society would do for any health issue, be it mental of physical. Help fix it, not belittle, mock and ostracize.
- 6y ago