5 ms·

> As for Brave New World, it's a utopia Well by that logic Hell is a utopia for demons. I mean yes, all dystopia have someone that enjoys being there, otherwis

by Ygg2 6y ago

> As for Brave New World, it's a utopia Well by that logic Hell is a utopia for demons. I mean yes, all dystopia have someone that enjoys being there, otherwise you would not get a society.

082349872349872 6y ago
The difference between Hell[1] and Brave New World is that presumably the non-demons don't enjoy Hell (are sinning masochists sent to Heaven?), but in Brave New World we're shown exactly one person (out of how many billions?) who doesn't care for it, deliberately turns down the chance to seek individualism on an island, and then thankfully hangs himself instead of writing a manifesto and sending letter bombs. (See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24098309 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24098309 for details.) This also applies to The Republic, where normally we'd expect at least the people on top of a social order to enjoy being there, even if no one else does, but Plato's arguments give rise to some scepticism among the auditors: (tr. Jowett) > "Here Adeimantus interposed a question: How would you answer, Socrates, said he, if a person were to say that you are making these people miserable, and that they are the cause of their own unhappiness; the city in fact belongs to them, but they are none the better for it; whereas other men acquire lands, and build large and handsome houses, and have everything handsome about them, offering sacrifices to the gods on their own account, and practising hospitality; moreover, as you were saying just now, they have gold and silver, and all that is usual among the favourites of fortune; but our poor citizens are no better than mercenaries who are quartered in the city and are always mounting guard?" [1] whose hell? https://old.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/3bcujr/a_russian_and_an_american_find_themselves_in_hell/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/3bcujr/a_russian_and... WRT to BNW, see also Dante's first circle.
- Ygg2 6y ago
  > but in Brave New World we're shown exactly one person (out of how many billions?) So you're saying that if Demons outnumbered humans billion to one, Hell would be a utopia. Also from my recollection it wasn't just one. Several characters were deeply unhappy about their status. There is no reason to believe these characters are outliers, there could be others. Although to be honest, most Brave New World people don't qualify as humans. They don't mourn their losses, create anything or believe in anything. They just consume. Most of them don't even procreate, since they are sterile.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    If demons outnumbered humans billions to one, Hell would be a utilitarian utopia. (Some kind people pointed me in the links above to Adorno and Mancuse, who attempted to address this obvious conclusion. Huxley himself wrote Island[1] as a more humane alternative. For an opposing opinion on what commutative associative operator one should use to lump up "general utility", see Those Who Walk Away From Omelas[2].) Following the links given above, we have what happens to the other characters: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23513002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23513002 I agree reasonable people may differ, but I'll still churlishly maintain the Savage (born viviparously) is the only one who's deeply unhappy. Marx (is it true what They say about the alcohol[3] in his bottle?) is annoyed, but he's happy enough when he can take advantage of the Savage, showing that he doesn't mind the System as long as he's comfortably near the top of his caste. Helmholtz is merely yearning to create literature, but since he doesn't know what that is, he doesn't realise what he hasn't done.) There is every reason to believe these characters are outliers, because it's explained that Alphas can't have as much conditioning[3,5] as the other castes, because they can handle creative jobs. Mond was unsatisfied, and got kicked upstairs. On the other hand, we have Fanny, and the Director[4], the members of Marx' Community Sing, and the entire supporting background cast. As Mond explicitly states the islands are society's escape valve for those who grow too individual, it seems unlikely there are many in the pre-island phase at any given time. The people in BNW count as humans to me: they are, in Marcus Aurelius' words, "meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous and surly" which makes them more human than, say, Spock (-0=0 and Mirror Spock = Spock). As to the specific charges: - mourn losses: what losses are there to mourn? BNW is set centuries after a post-economic singularity, for Ford's sake. "People are happy; they get what they want, and they never want what they can't get." And a gramme is better than a damn, anyway :-) There is at least one major religion that believes being hungry occasionally is a necessary part of being human. Would the people of the BNW consider mourning like other religions consider hunger? - create anything: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24108488 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24108488 What about feelies, flivvers, etc. etc.? Helmholtz himself works as a creative.[5] - freemartins: (this is a technical agricultural[6] term) are 35% of the population, so they are many but not most. Yes, that was pedantic. Many fewer than the non-reproductive population of other domesticated large animal species, to be certain. In any case, if one is not viviparous, then being a freemartin would seem to be superior, as one could always visit a feely or play another round of electromagnetic golf while the non-freemartins have to do their Malthusian Drill[7]. [1] I have not read this one yet, but a spoiler from the WP page is that said utopia doesn't exactly survive contact with the mundane world. Apocalypse Now reversed? [2] If there's anyone on HN who doesn't have enough sense not to start a vegan restaurant, consider naming it "Those Who Walk Away From Omelettes", please. [3] Up until recently in ireland, pregnant women were prescribed Guinness "for the iron." An irish friend says when she was young there were still a few unfortunates whose mothers must have been drinking more than a pint. [3,5] "Eton is reserved exclusively for upper-caste boys and girls. One egg, one adult. It makes education more difficult of course. But as they'll be called upon to take responsibilities and deal with unexpected emergencies, it can't be helped." (I note that Eton has yet to, as in the BNW, have a Head Mistress. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Head_Masters_of_Eton_College https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Head_Masters_of_Eton_C... ) Something that may help to explain Huxley's choice of hypnopaedic suggestions: british children (as Gods of the Copybook Headings suggests) used to copy "educational" snippets over and over. These days we use advertising more than education to inculcate and reinforce class distinctions, but the effects are similar. Because Orwell attended a second-rate boarding school, which "taught to the test", they never read classical authors in the whole, but were simply given received opinions and studied only a few key (carefully chosen so as not to disturb morals!) passages. The inclusion of both Eton and The Delta Mirror suggest to me that Huxley had just as much to say about his own time as he does about the future. Presumably the lack of sexual hangups means education of the leadership caste in the BNW has fewer peccadillos than our own time (although it may well be a penetrating example of the values learned from a thorough reading of the classics, cooked swine can't consent!). [4] Euthanasia via soma overdose is quietly implicit in a few passages. I suspect the Director may wind up there. [5] If Brave New World is one example of what one gets when writers find they must often, in order to earn a biscuit, write copy instead of, on their own dime, art, then The Space Merchants is another. [6] Dairy farmers are not fond of freemartins, because they need sons and daughters to produce veal and milk. Post Bokanovsky, that is perhaps not an issue — but we aren't treated, IIRC, to any information about the cuisine of the BNW. People here used to judge bulls by how they looked. The US taught us instead to rate them by how many litres of milk per input their daughters produce. Moneyball, only the balls are Rocky Mountain Oysters. [7] Huxley was only a few decades early on this front? "Schatzbutz Mausiherz ich lieb dich das ist kein Scherz / Fummel fummel kille kille, du nimmst eh die Pille..."

by Ygg2 6y ago

> As for Brave New World, it's a utopia Well by that logic Hell is a utopia for demons. I mean yes, all dystopia have someone that enjoys being there, otherwise you would not get a society.

082349872349872 6y ago

The difference between Hell[1] and Brave New World is that presumably the non-demons don't enjoy Hell (are sinning masochists sent to Heaven?), but in Brave New World we're shown exactly one person (out of how many billions?) who doesn't care for it, deliberately turns down the chance to seek individualism on an island, and then thankfully hangs himself instead of writing a manifesto and sending letter bombs. (See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24098309 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24098309 for details.) This also applies to The Republic, where normally we'd expect at least the people on top of a social order to enjoy being there, even if no one else does, but Plato's arguments give rise to some scepticism among the auditors: (tr. Jowett) > "Here Adeimantus interposed a question: How would you answer, Socrates, said he, if a person were to say that you are making these people miserable, and that they are the cause of their own unhappiness; the city in fact belongs to them, but they are none the better for it; whereas other men acquire lands, and build large and handsome houses, and have everything handsome about them, offering sacrifices to the gods on their own account, and practising hospitality; moreover, as you were saying just now, they have gold and silver, and all that is usual among the favourites of fortune; but our poor citizens are no better than mercenaries who are quartered in the city and are always mounting guard?" [1] whose hell? https://old.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/3bcujr/a_russian_and_an_american_find_themselves_in_hell/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/3bcujr/a_russian_and... WRT to BNW, see also Dante's first circle.

Ygg2 6y ago
> but in Brave New World we're shown exactly one person (out of how many billions?) So you're saying that if Demons outnumbered humans billion to one, Hell would be a utopia. Also from my recollection it wasn't just one. Several characters were deeply unhappy about their status. There is no reason to believe these characters are outliers, there could be others. Although to be honest, most Brave New World people don't qualify as humans. They don't mourn their losses, create anything or believe in anything. They just consume. Most of them don't even procreate, since they are sterile.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  If demons outnumbered humans billions to one, Hell would be a utilitarian utopia. (Some kind people pointed me in the links above to Adorno and Mancuse, who attempted to address this obvious conclusion. Huxley himself wrote Island[1] as a more humane alternative. For an opposing opinion on what commutative associative operator one should use to lump up "general utility", see Those Who Walk Away From Omelas[2].) Following the links given above, we have what happens to the other characters: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23513002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23513002 I agree reasonable people may differ, but I'll still churlishly maintain the Savage (born viviparously) is the only one who's deeply unhappy. Marx (is it true what They say about the alcohol[3] in his bottle?) is annoyed, but he's happy enough when he can take advantage of the Savage, showing that he doesn't mind the System as long as he's comfortably near the top of his caste. Helmholtz is merely yearning to create literature, but since he doesn't know what that is, he doesn't realise what he hasn't done.) There is every reason to believe these characters are outliers, because it's explained that Alphas can't have as much conditioning[3,5] as the other castes, because they can handle creative jobs. Mond was unsatisfied, and got kicked upstairs. On the other hand, we have Fanny, and the Director[4], the members of Marx' Community Sing, and the entire supporting background cast. As Mond explicitly states the islands are society's escape valve for those who grow too individual, it seems unlikely there are many in the pre-island phase at any given time. The people in BNW count as humans to me: they are, in Marcus Aurelius' words, "meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous and surly" which makes them more human than, say, Spock (-0=0 and Mirror Spock = Spock). As to the specific charges: - mourn losses: what losses are there to mourn? BNW is set centuries after a post-economic singularity, for Ford's sake. "People are happy; they get what they want, and they never want what they can't get." And a gramme is better than a damn, anyway :-) There is at least one major religion that believes being hungry occasionally is a necessary part of being human. Would the people of the BNW consider mourning like other religions consider hunger? - create anything: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24108488 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24108488 What about feelies, flivvers, etc. etc.? Helmholtz himself works as a creative.[5] - freemartins: (this is a technical agricultural[6] term) are 35% of the population, so they are many but not most. Yes, that was pedantic. Many fewer than the non-reproductive population of other domesticated large animal species, to be certain. In any case, if one is not viviparous, then being a freemartin would seem to be superior, as one could always visit a feely or play another round of electromagnetic golf while the non-freemartins have to do their Malthusian Drill[7]. [1] I have not read this one yet, but a spoiler from the WP page is that said utopia doesn't exactly survive contact with the mundane world. Apocalypse Now reversed? [2] If there's anyone on HN who doesn't have enough sense not to start a vegan restaurant, consider naming it "Those Who Walk Away From Omelettes", please. [3] Up until recently in ireland, pregnant women were prescribed Guinness "for the iron." An irish friend says when she was young there were still a few unfortunates whose mothers must have been drinking more than a pint. [3,5] "Eton is reserved exclusively for upper-caste boys and girls. One egg, one adult. It makes education more difficult of course. But as they'll be called upon to take responsibilities and deal with unexpected emergencies, it can't be helped." (I note that Eton has yet to, as in the BNW, have a Head Mistress. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Head_Masters_of_Eton_College https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Head_Masters_of_Eton_C... ) Something that may help to explain Huxley's choice of hypnopaedic suggestions: british children (as Gods of the Copybook Headings suggests) used to copy "educational" snippets over and over. These days we use advertising more than education to inculcate and reinforce class distinctions, but the effects are similar. Because Orwell attended a second-rate boarding school, which "taught to the test", they never read classical authors in the whole, but were simply given received opinions and studied only a few key (carefully chosen so as not to disturb morals!) passages. The inclusion of both Eton and The Delta Mirror suggest to me that Huxley had just as much to say about his own time as he does about the future. Presumably the lack of sexual hangups means education of the leadership caste in the BNW has fewer peccadillos than our own time (although it may well be a penetrating example of the values learned from a thorough reading of the classics, cooked swine can't consent!). [4] Euthanasia via soma overdose is quietly implicit in a few passages. I suspect the Director may wind up there. [5] If Brave New World is one example of what one gets when writers find they must often, in order to earn a biscuit, write copy instead of, on their own dime, art, then The Space Merchants is another. [6] Dairy farmers are not fond of freemartins, because they need sons and daughters to produce veal and milk. Post Bokanovsky, that is perhaps not an issue — but we aren't treated, IIRC, to any information about the cuisine of the BNW. People here used to judge bulls by how they looked. The US taught us instead to rate them by how many litres of milk per input their daughters produce. Moneyball, only the balls are Rocky Mountain Oysters. [7] Huxley was only a few decades early on this front? "Schatzbutz Mausiherz ich lieb dich das ist kein Scherz / Fummel fummel kille kille, du nimmst eh die Pille..."