4 ms·

Plato’s Republic is nothing like 1984 and to suggest so shows a deep, fundamental lack of knowledge on Plato’s conceptions of the soul, truth, beauty, and innum

Plato’s Republic is nothing like 1984 and to suggest so shows a deep, fundamental lack of knowledge on Plato’s conceptions of the soul, truth, beauty, and innumerable other things generally considered ‘positive.’

082349872349872 6y ago
- soul: do you have a cite? I believe Plato is fairly orthodox in ascribing souls to people, not to the state. - truth: is what the rulers make of it http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D3%3Asection%3D389b http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%... et seq and certainly would be undermined by the arts, necessitating heavy censorship http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D10%3Asection%3D607a http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%... - beauty: does this occur in 1984? It's not in Goldstein at all, so I have nothing to parallel. In the meantime, Jowett's translation of Book V: > "Yes, and the most ridiculous thing of all will be the sight of women naked in the palaestra, exercising with the men, especially when they are no longer young; they certainly will not be a vision of beauty, any more than the enthusiastic old men who in spite of wrinkles and ugliness continue to frequent the gymnasia. Yes, indeed, he said: according to present notions the proposal would be thought ridiculous. But then, I said, as we have determined to speak our minds, we must not fear the jests of the wits which will be directed against this sort of innovation; how they will talk of women's attainments both in music and gymnastic, and above all about their wearing armour and riding upon horseback!" makes me wonder if he'd had any exposure to Scyths, etc.? e.g. https://d30womf5coomej.cloudfront.net/c/d4/0cb93d1b-dc27-43dc-bc46-ed549fd6fa76.jpg https://d30womf5coomej.cloudfront.net/c/d4/0cb93d1b-dc27-43d... (from https://tapas.io/episode/1577942 https://tapas.io/episode/1577942 ) and compare http://www.math.uchicago.edu/~wald/lit/heroine_barbarian.html http://www.math.uchicago.edu/~wald/lit/heroine_barbarian.htm... (incidentally, "Who needs to wait for daylight? I just work by _sensus tactilis_." is a classical reference, but I recall neither poem nor author at the moment.)
- ceilingcorner 6y ago
  Plato’s societal structure is designed to achieve his highest aims for the individual and the state. 1984 is a dystopian novel which, if anything, is a dumbed down version of a Kafka novel. It has nothing to do with Plato’s philosophy. They have about as much in common with each other as an orange does with Jupiter: both are round. This is basic common sense to anyone with knowledge of either.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    An appeal to the text would be more useful than an appeal to "common sense", as the latter smacks of doxophily. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D5%3Asection%3D480a http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%...
    - ceilingcorner 6y ago
      No, common sense, as in: we can’t argue about something of which you have no knowledge. I’ll say it again: the governmental structure portrayed in 1984 has absolutely nothing to do with Plato’s Republic. This is extremely obvious to anyone with knowledge of either work. Period.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Can you point to any of the 6 given (perseus) textual links and explain why they are not parallel? That would be useful for me to understand why you disagree, as we both agree we value "truth." Otherwise, asserting "common sense" without specific evidence is neither instructive nor amusing (other than being reminiscent of Plato's neologism, the doxophile): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D5%3Asection%3D480a http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%... (the english has been inverted from the greek, φιλόδοξος. Compare french philodoxe.)

082349872349872 6y ago

- soul: do you have a cite? I believe Plato is fairly orthodox in ascribing souls to people, not to the state. - truth: is what the rulers make of it http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D3%3Asection%3D389b http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%... et seq and certainly would be undermined by the arts, necessitating heavy censorship http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D10%3Asection%3D607a http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%... - beauty: does this occur in 1984? It's not in Goldstein at all, so I have nothing to parallel. In the meantime, Jowett's translation of Book V: > "Yes, and the most ridiculous thing of all will be the sight of women naked in the palaestra, exercising with the men, especially when they are no longer young; they certainly will not be a vision of beauty, any more than the enthusiastic old men who in spite of wrinkles and ugliness continue to frequent the gymnasia. Yes, indeed, he said: according to present notions the proposal would be thought ridiculous. But then, I said, as we have determined to speak our minds, we must not fear the jests of the wits which will be directed against this sort of innovation; how they will talk of women's attainments both in music and gymnastic, and above all about their wearing armour and riding upon horseback!" makes me wonder if he'd had any exposure to Scyths, etc.? e.g. https://d30womf5coomej.cloudfront.net/c/d4/0cb93d1b-dc27-43dc-bc46-ed549fd6fa76.jpg https://d30womf5coomej.cloudfront.net/c/d4/0cb93d1b-dc27-43d... (from https://tapas.io/episode/1577942 https://tapas.io/episode/1577942 ) and compare http://www.math.uchicago.edu/~wald/lit/heroine_barbarian.html http://www.math.uchicago.edu/~wald/lit/heroine_barbarian.htm... (incidentally, "Who needs to wait for daylight? I just work by _sensus tactilis_." is a classical reference, but I recall neither poem nor author at the moment.)

ceilingcorner 6y ago
Plato’s societal structure is designed to achieve his highest aims for the individual and the state. 1984 is a dystopian novel which, if anything, is a dumbed down version of a Kafka novel. It has nothing to do with Plato’s philosophy. They have about as much in common with each other as an orange does with Jupiter: both are round. This is basic common sense to anyone with knowledge of either.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  An appeal to the text would be more useful than an appeal to "common sense", as the latter smacks of doxophily. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D5%3Asection%3D480a http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%...
  - ceilingcorner 6y ago
    No, common sense, as in: we can’t argue about something of which you have no knowledge. I’ll say it again: the governmental structure portrayed in 1984 has absolutely nothing to do with Plato’s Republic. This is extremely obvious to anyone with knowledge of either work. Period.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Can you point to any of the 6 given (perseus) textual links and explain why they are not parallel? That would be useful for me to understand why you disagree, as we both agree we value "truth." Otherwise, asserting "common sense" without specific evidence is neither instructive nor amusing (other than being reminiscent of Plato's neologism, the doxophile): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D5%3Asection%3D480a http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%... (the english has been inverted from the greek, φιλόδοξος. Compare french philodoxe.)