"people saying otherwise don't use Telegram, and/or do not know what they are arguing over" So that would include world famous professional cryptographers like

"people saying otherwise don't use Telegram, and/or do not know what they are arguing over" So that would include world famous professional cryptographers like Bruce Schneier and Matt Green. Meanwhile the people recommending Telegram are random usernames on internet forums. It sounds like you're the only one who doesn't know what they're talking about. "Anyone can start a private chat encrypted end-to-end" This is such a shill talking point. Telegram doesn't even support E2EE for groups. Every dissident groups leaks 100% of its chats to server with no possibility to opt-out.