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> Yeah, it feels more like they're getting punished for getting a discount and not giving the universities the bribe directly. What do you think the word "brib

> Yeah, it feels more like they're getting punished for getting a discount and not giving the universities the bribe directly. What do you think the word "bribe" means? Paying money for a service (admission to a university) is not a bribe. Exchanging money for services is literally how the entire economy works. Paying an agent of an organization money to subvert their organization's processes and steal from their employer, on the other hand, is actual bribery.

fossuser 6y ago
The university pretends to have one admissions process, but quietly has another. It’s the subversion of their supposedly established process that makes it bribe like. Particularly when it’s money as a lever to get things in your favor. In the quiet admissions process if you give them enough money they’ll act in your favor, but none of this is public or official and they pretend they’re not doing this at the same time. It may not be illegal, but you’re shuffling deck chairs on the titanic of ethics at that point. If you’re selling slots at market price then do that, quietly taking money in a wink-wink donation for admissions slot looks a lot like bribery to me.
- esoterica 6y ago
  They aren't doing any pretending. It's well publicized fact that legacies get preferential admissions and people who donate to put their names on buildings get even higher preference. It's not something they are doing quietly in the background. The colleges I applied to all had a section on the application for listing alumni you're related to.
  - fossuser 6y ago
    Legacy admissions is a different issue (though that's a problem too). It is not a well publicized fact that 'people who donate get even higher preference', even calling it 'preference' is a euphemistic way to obscure the bribery. It isn't preference, there's some hidden price and people are paying it for a slot. Nobody is paying for a building and finding out their kid is not accepted. Show me where on any top university website it says 'as an alternative to our standard merit-based admissions process you can contact this number to discuss payment for admission'. They can't say that, both because it would reduce their leverage in negotiating the bribe value, and because what people are paying for (in large part) is the social status of having been accepted to an exclusive institution on merit. Universities know this, it's why they spend effort encouraging applicants they know they will never accept in an effort to drive down the acceptance percentage and drive up their exclusivity. If it's public that your rich parent bought your slot then suddenly a lot of that status evaporates. Since the social status is more the product in question than the actual education people paying for it don't want this to happen. This being public is bad for the school's brand too since knowledge that a lot of students can buy their way in would reduce the status that they're selling in the first place.
- pyuser583 6y ago
  I spent a brief time in university admissions. There are lots of “side doors” - and that’s not necessarily bad. For example, one university had a rule that any prospective student who inquires about a certain program, and shows a detailed understanding of how that program works, be fast tracked in. Why? We’ve spent a ton of time building that program and want to enroll interested students! The same was true, to a lesser degree, of any prospect who had clearly done her research and was interested in this college specifically. Asking things like “I hear you offer one on one tutorials - how do they work?” show that the students are actually interested in the college, and would probably be a good match. On the other hand, if we get the idea that we’re simply a “safety school” that the student wants to avoid if they can - that student can expect an extremely rigorous and unforgiving assessment of her abilities.

fossuser 6y ago

The university pretends to have one admissions process, but quietly has another. It’s the subversion of their supposedly established process that makes it bribe like. Particularly when it’s money as a lever to get things in your favor. In the quiet admissions process if you give them enough money they’ll act in your favor, but none of this is public or official and they pretend they’re not doing this at the same time. It may not be illegal, but you’re shuffling deck chairs on the titanic of ethics at that point. If you’re selling slots at market price then do that, quietly taking money in a wink-wink donation for admissions slot looks a lot like bribery to me.

esoterica 6y ago
They aren't doing any pretending. It's well publicized fact that legacies get preferential admissions and people who donate to put their names on buildings get even higher preference. It's not something they are doing quietly in the background. The colleges I applied to all had a section on the application for listing alumni you're related to.
- fossuser 6y ago
  Legacy admissions is a different issue (though that's a problem too). It is not a well publicized fact that 'people who donate get even higher preference', even calling it 'preference' is a euphemistic way to obscure the bribery. It isn't preference, there's some hidden price and people are paying it for a slot. Nobody is paying for a building and finding out their kid is not accepted. Show me where on any top university website it says 'as an alternative to our standard merit-based admissions process you can contact this number to discuss payment for admission'. They can't say that, both because it would reduce their leverage in negotiating the bribe value, and because what people are paying for (in large part) is the social status of having been accepted to an exclusive institution on merit. Universities know this, it's why they spend effort encouraging applicants they know they will never accept in an effort to drive down the acceptance percentage and drive up their exclusivity. If it's public that your rich parent bought your slot then suddenly a lot of that status evaporates. Since the social status is more the product in question than the actual education people paying for it don't want this to happen. This being public is bad for the school's brand too since knowledge that a lot of students can buy their way in would reduce the status that they're selling in the first place.
pyuser583 6y ago
I spent a brief time in university admissions. There are lots of “side doors” - and that’s not necessarily bad. For example, one university had a rule that any prospective student who inquires about a certain program, and shows a detailed understanding of how that program works, be fast tracked in. Why? We’ve spent a ton of time building that program and want to enroll interested students! The same was true, to a lesser degree, of any prospect who had clearly done her research and was interested in this college specifically. Asking things like “I hear you offer one on one tutorials - how do they work?” show that the students are actually interested in the college, and would probably be a good match. On the other hand, if we get the idea that we’re simply a “safety school” that the student wants to avoid if they can - that student can expect an extremely rigorous and unforgiving assessment of her abilities.