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Whenever I read Vitalik's work, I find myself convinced that all of society and its various problems can be boiled down to incentives and their alignment or mis

Whenever I read Vitalik's work, I find myself convinced that all of society and its various problems can be boiled down to incentives and their alignment or misalignment.

chrisshroba 6y ago
Any recommendations of other work of his to read?
- wonder_er 6y ago
  I'm not OP, and the books that jumped to my mind when I read this are not blockchain-related. They are related by questions of society, trust, and incentive design. They seem largely aligned with Vitalik's assessment of the `0 of N`/`1 of N` assessment Before clicking through to Goodreads, though, check out this book review of Seeing like a State by Scott Alexander: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-like-a-state/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-lik... Next, check out both of these books: - James C. Scott, Seeing Like a State: How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed [0] - Michael Huemer, The Problem of Political Authority: An Examination of the Right to Coerce and the Duty to Obey [1] Neither book will disappoint! [0]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20186.Seeing_Like_a_State https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20186.Seeing_Like_a_Stat... [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15794037-the-problem-of-political-authority https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15794037-the-problem-of-... Edit: for clarity.
  - brian_cloutier 6y ago
    I heartily recommend Seeing Like a State to anyone interested in the development of the modern state, some of the largest misteps made by a slew of modernist authoritarian regimes (such as the Soviet Union), and an introduction to some very legitimate criticisms of modernism which postmodernism makes. However, I want to caution anyone from thinking that this book says anything about Game Theory. I'm not sure why it's being recommended here, it doesn't have much to say about the current topic, except in that it often points out that authoritarian governments are free to ignore any feedback, feedback of the kind that incentive schemes are usually designed to generate.
    - wonder_er 6y ago
      You pointed out exactly why I mentioned it: > except in that it often points out that authoritarian governments are free to ignore any feedback, feedback of the kind that incentive schemes are usually designed to generate. A view of the modern state is made more accurate if one views the state as an entity desirous to ignore feedback from citizens, rather than actively responsive to citizen opinion. Robert Caro has written amazing books. I'm half-way through this two-hour dialog titled "On Power"[0]. He says he essentially stumbled into writing The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York[1] after observing how Robert Moses (an unelected bureaucrat) completely controlled huge "democratic" institutions. I mention the books because they highlight some of the means and ways in which the state encourages it's people to think it is responsive to them, but this responsiveness is a slight of hand, even as plenty of participants in the system (both as citizens and as representatives of the state) earnestly believe that the state is responsive to public input. [0]: https://www.audible.com/pd/On-Power-Audiobook/B06XNKVH16 https://www.audible.com/pd/On-Power-Audiobook/B06XNKVH16 [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1111.The_Power_Broker https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1111.The_Power_Broker
dasudasu 6y ago
To me that's the basic point of game theory.
meowface 6y ago
You may enjoy this podcast episode with him and Eric Weinstein, where he dives deeply into these topics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TwNNgiNZ7Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TwNNgiNZ7Y
- ZephyrBlu 6y ago
  Not related to this topic, but I recently watched Lex Fridman's podcast episode with him and it was really interesting as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q.
  - meowface 6y ago
    Yes, also a good one. I'd recommend pretty much all of Lex Fridman's and Eric Weinstein's podcast episodes in general. Lots of insightful conversations with (in my opinion) some of the most interesting people in the world. Links for anyone curious: Eric Weinstein's The Portal Podcast - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLq9jO8fmlPee9ezOraOHAJ3g9Zh3V2F2G https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLq9jO8fmlPee9ezOraOHA... Lex Fridman's Artificial Intelligence Podcast - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuK...
    - siinamon 6y ago
      These are all great links, thank you!
setheron 6y ago
That's the basic premise that drives economic theory.
INGELRII 6y ago
“Never, ever, think about something else when you should be thinking about the power of incentives.” — Charlie Munger, https://fs.blog/2017/10/bias-incentives-reinforcement/ https://fs.blog/2017/10/bias-incentives-reinforcement/ Mechanism design is a subfield of game theory and economics called mechanism design that tackles this directly. Instead of having a game and figuring out how it works and what is the outcome is when agents play it, the problem is to design a game that creates desired outcomes when selfish agents play it. It's possible to design mechanisms where utilitarian social-choice function is the best choice even when players are selfish. The most famous result in the field is Vickrey–Clarke–Groves mechanism to achieve a socially-optimal solution in auctions. Quadratic voting and quadratic funding is another interesting mechanism that results good outcomes. Vitalik Buterin is involved with this too.
- cutemonster 6y ago
  > design a game that creates desired outcomes when selfish agents play it. Curious about if these ideas have been applied to constructing healthy effective companies? With happy employees Or maybe one could say everyone that comes up with some KPI are doing this?

Whenever I read Vitalik's work, I find myself convinced that all of society and its various problems can be boiled down to incentives and their alignment or misalignment.

chrisshroba 6y ago

Any recommendations of other work of his to read?

wonder_er 6y ago
I'm not OP, and the books that jumped to my mind when I read this are not blockchain-related. They are related by questions of society, trust, and incentive design. They seem largely aligned with Vitalik's assessment of the `0 of N`/`1 of N` assessment Before clicking through to Goodreads, though, check out this book review of Seeing like a State by Scott Alexander: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-like-a-state/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-lik... Next, check out both of these books: - James C. Scott, Seeing Like a State: How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed [0] - Michael Huemer, The Problem of Political Authority: An Examination of the Right to Coerce and the Duty to Obey [1] Neither book will disappoint! [0]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20186.Seeing_Like_a_State https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20186.Seeing_Like_a_Stat... [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15794037-the-problem-of-political-authority https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15794037-the-problem-of-... Edit: for clarity.
- brian_cloutier 6y ago
  I heartily recommend Seeing Like a State to anyone interested in the development of the modern state, some of the largest misteps made by a slew of modernist authoritarian regimes (such as the Soviet Union), and an introduction to some very legitimate criticisms of modernism which postmodernism makes. However, I want to caution anyone from thinking that this book says anything about Game Theory. I'm not sure why it's being recommended here, it doesn't have much to say about the current topic, except in that it often points out that authoritarian governments are free to ignore any feedback, feedback of the kind that incentive schemes are usually designed to generate.
  - wonder_er 6y ago
    You pointed out exactly why I mentioned it: > except in that it often points out that authoritarian governments are free to ignore any feedback, feedback of the kind that incentive schemes are usually designed to generate. A view of the modern state is made more accurate if one views the state as an entity desirous to ignore feedback from citizens, rather than actively responsive to citizen opinion. Robert Caro has written amazing books. I'm half-way through this two-hour dialog titled "On Power"[0]. He says he essentially stumbled into writing The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York[1] after observing how Robert Moses (an unelected bureaucrat) completely controlled huge "democratic" institutions. I mention the books because they highlight some of the means and ways in which the state encourages it's people to think it is responsive to them, but this responsiveness is a slight of hand, even as plenty of participants in the system (both as citizens and as representatives of the state) earnestly believe that the state is responsive to public input. [0]: https://www.audible.com/pd/On-Power-Audiobook/B06XNKVH16 https://www.audible.com/pd/On-Power-Audiobook/B06XNKVH16 [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1111.The_Power_Broker https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1111.The_Power_Broker

dasudasu 6y ago

To me that's the basic point of game theory.

meowface 6y ago

You may enjoy this podcast episode with him and Eric Weinstein, where he dives deeply into these topics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TwNNgiNZ7Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TwNNgiNZ7Y

ZephyrBlu 6y ago
Not related to this topic, but I recently watched Lex Fridman's podcast episode with him and it was really interesting as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q.
- meowface 6y ago
  Yes, also a good one. I'd recommend pretty much all of Lex Fridman's and Eric Weinstein's podcast episodes in general. Lots of insightful conversations with (in my opinion) some of the most interesting people in the world. Links for anyone curious: Eric Weinstein's The Portal Podcast - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLq9jO8fmlPee9ezOraOHAJ3g9Zh3V2F2G https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLq9jO8fmlPee9ezOraOHA... Lex Fridman's Artificial Intelligence Podcast - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuK...
  - siinamon 6y ago
    These are all great links, thank you!

setheron 6y ago

That's the basic premise that drives economic theory.

INGELRII 6y ago

“Never, ever, think about something else when you should be thinking about the power of incentives.” — Charlie Munger, https://fs.blog/2017/10/bias-incentives-reinforcement/ https://fs.blog/2017/10/bias-incentives-reinforcement/ Mechanism design is a subfield of game theory and economics called mechanism design that tackles this directly. Instead of having a game and figuring out how it works and what is the outcome is when agents play it, the problem is to design a game that creates desired outcomes when selfish agents play it. It's possible to design mechanisms where utilitarian social-choice function is the best choice even when players are selfish. The most famous result in the field is Vickrey–Clarke–Groves mechanism to achieve a socially-optimal solution in auctions. Quadratic voting and quadratic funding is another interesting mechanism that results good outcomes. Vitalik Buterin is involved with this too.

cutemonster 6y ago
> design a game that creates desired outcomes when selfish agents play it. Curious about if these ideas have been applied to constructing healthy effective companies? With happy employees Or maybe one could say everyone that comes up with some KPI are doing this?