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Why would developers need to run their own app store to compete with Epic? It sounds like if Epic gets their way there would be a plethora of app stores which

by slg 6y ago

Why would developers need to run their own app store to compete with Epic? It sounds like if Epic gets their way there would be a plethora of app stores which would all need to compete against each other for developers. The end result would be store fees dropping to the point in which they are more closely aligned with the value the store provides. That is good for all developers (although whether it is good for all users is debatable).

abc-xyz 6y ago
I’m not so sure the end result would be fees dropping considering Android allows third-party stores and they still charge 30% like Apple.
- zwily 6y ago
  I’ve been confused about this since they filed suit against Google... don’t they have what they want there, the ability to run their own App Store? So it’s not that they want to run their own store, but... what? They want to be in Google Play but without the same cut? I haven’t seen anyone address that.
  - paulgb 6y ago
    There argument is basically that, while it's true on a technical level that non-Google app stores can exist, as a matter of practice Google strongarms OEMs into not shipping phones with them. (I'm not sure how true this is, just my interpretation of what their lawyers argue) https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/21759099/file0.243586135368002.pdf https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/21759099/f...
    - paulgb 6y ago
      *their (missed the edit window)
    - anoncake 6y ago
      And stores the user themselves are severly crippled as they can't upgrade or install any apps in the background.
  - gdwatson 6y ago
    Epic says that it made a deal with OnePlus to preinstall Fortnite, but Google leaned on the manufacturer to scrub the deal.[1] I think that puts joining the Play store in a different light. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368395/fortnite-epic-games-oneplus-deal-google-play-store-lawsuit-lg https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368395/fortnite-epic-ga...
graeme 6y ago
> compete against each other for developers. They wouldn’t be competing on underlying frameworks though. Epic’s letter asked Apple to extend its app install frameworks and related frameworks to competing app stores. So the only point of competition would be price, or marketing savvy. This seems to resolve to my point above: reducing Apple’s cut would benefit all developers. Not clear how the rest does, except perhaps indirectly by forcing Apple and Google to surrender their businesses. And big developers would have a relative advantage. It’s not that small developers would have to run an app store: it’s that the ability to run an app store provides relatively more advantage to large companies who can. Whether small developers had an absolute improvement might depend on whether prices dropped to match the lower cost structure. Epic also wants anyone to be able to install apps on ios outside app stores. See point #2, app stores and apps available via direct install. This would lower trust in apps. The trust of the app store has led to an explosion of developer revenue. Not obvious that dismantling this system will help small developers.
- dwighttk 6y ago
  I still don’t get “apps available via direct install” Epic had (/has?) this with Android and gave up because... reasons?
  - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
    They still offer it, and since they're also banned from the Play Store, probably dependent on it again for Android users. They probably listed in the Play Store in order to get standing to sue Google.
  - graeme 6y ago
    Epic has claimed that Google put so many restrictions that it effectively wasn’t an option for them. Google has measures to persuade people not to turn on sideloading, for security reasons. So Epic wants both Google and Apple to abandon their security models and allow direct installs of apps. Phones have been an enormously popular computing platform in significant part because of the security model. Non-technical users can use them easily and reasonably trust the apps they install. Epic is asking for a rather radical shift.

by slg 6y ago

abc-xyz 6y ago

I’m not so sure the end result would be fees dropping considering Android allows third-party stores and they still charge 30% like Apple.

zwily 6y ago
I’ve been confused about this since they filed suit against Google... don’t they have what they want there, the ability to run their own App Store? So it’s not that they want to run their own store, but... what? They want to be in Google Play but without the same cut? I haven’t seen anyone address that.
- paulgb 6y ago
  There argument is basically that, while it's true on a technical level that non-Google app stores can exist, as a matter of practice Google strongarms OEMs into not shipping phones with them. (I'm not sure how true this is, just my interpretation of what their lawyers argue) https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/21759099/file0.243586135368002.pdf https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/21759099/f...
  - paulgb 6y ago
    *their (missed the edit window)
  - anoncake 6y ago
    And stores the user themselves are severly crippled as they can't upgrade or install any apps in the background.
- gdwatson 6y ago
  Epic says that it made a deal with OnePlus to preinstall Fortnite, but Google leaned on the manufacturer to scrub the deal.[1] I think that puts joining the Play store in a different light. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368395/fortnite-epic-games-oneplus-deal-google-play-store-lawsuit-lg https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368395/fortnite-epic-ga...

graeme 6y ago

> compete against each other for developers. They wouldn’t be competing on underlying frameworks though. Epic’s letter asked Apple to extend its app install frameworks and related frameworks to competing app stores. So the only point of competition would be price, or marketing savvy. This seems to resolve to my point above: reducing Apple’s cut would benefit all developers. Not clear how the rest does, except perhaps indirectly by forcing Apple and Google to surrender their businesses. And big developers would have a relative advantage. It’s not that small developers would have to run an app store: it’s that the ability to run an app store provides relatively more advantage to large companies who can. Whether small developers had an absolute improvement might depend on whether prices dropped to match the lower cost structure. Epic also wants anyone to be able to install apps on ios outside app stores. See point #2, app stores and apps available via direct install. This would lower trust in apps. The trust of the app store has led to an explosion of developer revenue. Not obvious that dismantling this system will help small developers.

dwighttk 6y ago
I still don’t get “apps available via direct install” Epic had (/has?) this with Android and gave up because... reasons?
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  They still offer it, and since they're also banned from the Play Store, probably dependent on it again for Android users. They probably listed in the Play Store in order to get standing to sue Google.
- graeme 6y ago
  Epic has claimed that Google put so many restrictions that it effectively wasn’t an option for them. Google has measures to persuade people not to turn on sideloading, for security reasons. So Epic wants both Google and Apple to abandon their security models and allow direct installs of apps. Phones have been an enormously popular computing platform in significant part because of the security model. Non-technical users can use them easily and reasonably trust the apps they install. Epic is asking for a rather radical shift.