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Note that the bulk of developers would not be in a position to run their own appstores as epic wanted to. Their goal is to pay less revenue to Apple but also ge

by graeme 6y ago

Note that the bulk of developers would not be in a position to run their own appstores as epic wanted to. Their goal is to pay less revenue to Apple but also get rid of the level playing field of the App Store. Even if Apple agreed to the demands and made the options available to all developers, Epic would have an advantage. They also have the advantage of being a trusted brand, whereas the games space is full of scammy apps. There’s a reason google specifically requires IAP in that space. Right now you don’t have to trust a game developer on apple or google to pay them. With Epic’s change, big brands would get a trust afvamtage they could use to increase their dominance. So asking to make the changes Epic requested was more self serving than it seems. Lowering apple’s commission would benefit all developers. But own IAP and separate app stores would benefit big developers, like epic.

tikhonj 6y ago
Other companies would not be able to run an appstore, but they would be able to list their work on 3rd-party appstores (and maybe have their own direct distribution channel like a website?). The point is to allow competition. One thing that would enable is narrow appstores with active curation—sort of what Apple promises but, if the store is fully of scammy games, doesn't quite deliver. A company could run a game-specific store with much stricter requirements than Apple's store.
- _qulr 6y ago
  It really depends on what "app store" means. Is an indie Mac developers's web store an app store? I'd say yes. They just sell their own apps, not the apps of other developers. I'm not sure why legally this would be restricted to only app stores that contain the apps of multiple developers.
- threeseed 6y ago
  So your idea is that the world should revolve around developers. As a user instead of going to one private, trusted and secure store I now have to visit dozens. All of which are going to be competing on price which means they will look to sell my user data to make money. And what makes anyone think that the App Stores will simply not be dominated by Amazon, Epic, Valve etc like most gaming is today. In which case this is all about transferring money from one large corporation to another.
  - gridlockd 6y ago
    You don't "have" to do anything. If I don't want to sell my product on the App Store, or if I have to make you pay more for it, I risk losing you as a customer. That's a trade-off every developer is aware of. Most apps that can publish on the App Store, will still publish on the App Store. On the PC, Epic sometimes has to shell out a lot of money to get an exclusive release, because a lot of people just use Steam. However, a lot of apps can't publish on the App Store, because of the strict anti-competitive rules.
  - graeme 6y ago
    > All of which are going to be competing on price which means they will look to sell my user data to make money. Didn’t even occur to me. It’s the obvious way app stores can earn money if there was some legislated effort to cut the commission fee and force multiple stores.
  - smichel17 6y ago
    On my Linux desktop, I install sodtware from multiple different locations, administered from a single tool. I do the same on my Android phone, with F-Droid. The repository model is basically the best of both worlds, from my perspective.
- yibg 6y ago
  Having a bunch of app stores to choose from sounds like a way worse experience for the end user. I'd have to jump between different app stores to see where a particular app exists and also probably compare the different prices. On top of that I'd have to decide which app store is trust worthy.
  - zachm0 6y ago
    If I'm reading this right, you are saying that competition would be worse for consumers? Can you name a scenario where opening up a market to competitors has been a net negative to consumers? I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I haven't thought about it for very long. Yes going around to different stores to find the best price is annoying, but you are under no obligation to do it. You can't say shopping around is a worse experience for the end user because it is a problem entirely of their own making. If shopping around is that much of a hassle you could always just stick to the Apple App Store.
    - arugulum 6y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_crash_of_1983 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_crash_of_1983
    - ryandrake 6y ago
      As a user it’s annoying. On a PC in order to access every game you need to have Steam, the Epic store, the Microsoft store, all these stores... argh! You want game X? Only on Store A. Game Y? Only on Store B! What a pain for no reason! I just want one store that has everything in it. Why do we always have to have a dozen competing versions of everything?! Same with Netflix, and Hulu, and Prime, and Disney, and HBOgo, and on and on and on. As a user it’s on my shoulders to navigate all this complexity. Yuck! This whole “single AppStore” thing is only a big problem to developers. That’s why it gets so much attention and air time here because only developers whine about it and we are all developers. As an end user I just want one app distribution system to worry about.
      - mdoms 6y ago
slg 6y ago
Why would developers need to run their own app store to compete with Epic? It sounds like if Epic gets their way there would be a plethora of app stores which would all need to compete against each other for developers. The end result would be store fees dropping to the point in which they are more closely aligned with the value the store provides. That is good for all developers (although whether it is good for all users is debatable).
- abc-xyz 6y ago
  I’m not so sure the end result would be fees dropping considering Android allows third-party stores and they still charge 30% like Apple.
  - zwily 6y ago
    I’ve been confused about this since they filed suit against Google... don’t they have what they want there, the ability to run their own App Store? So it’s not that they want to run their own store, but... what? They want to be in Google Play but without the same cut? I haven’t seen anyone address that.
    - paulgb 6y ago
      There argument is basically that, while it's true on a technical level that non-Google app stores can exist, as a matter of practice Google strongarms OEMs into not shipping phones with them. (I'm not sure how true this is, just my interpretation of what their lawyers argue) https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/21759099/file0.243586135368002.pdf https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/21759099/f...
      - paulgb 6y ago
        *their (missed the edit window)
      - anoncake 6y ago
        And stores the user themselves are severly crippled as they can't upgrade or install any apps in the background.
gridlockd 6y ago
First of all, the app store is not a level playing field. Many companies get special treatment, important apps like WeChat (which is effectively an App Store) get to ignore the rules. A multitude of App Stores on iOS would create competition among the stores themselves. For instance, if you want to publish on the Epic Store, they only take a 15% cut, therefore games on there can be cheaper. Lastly, who says you need to run an app store to publish apps? Being able to publish directly is viable on other platforms, after all. iOS has a good-enough security model so that even malicious apps are limited in what they can do. Apple does not and can not scan for malicious behavior within that security framework anyway.
- threeseed 6y ago
  > Apple does not and can not scan for malicious behavior within that security framework anyway They have been doing this since the beginning of the App Store. We know they scan binaries for use of private APIs so it wouldn't surprise me if they are looking for other ways to get around the OS.
  - gridlockd 6y ago
    That's scanning for private APIs, not scanning for malicious behavior. Use of private APIs is not inherently malicious and the security framework can not rely on private APIs not being used.
Animats 6y ago
Epic doesn't even want to run an "app store". They want to sell Fortnite items to Fortnite players to be used in Fortnite's world. Those objects never leave the Fortnite ecosystem. They're not installed on the phone as "apps". Some of them have no client side presence at all.
- graeme 6y ago
  You clearly didn’t read the letter. Point #2 specifically asks for an Epic Games app store on iOS. Available through the iOS app store but also through sideloading (direct installation).
stfwn 6y ago
> Even if Apple agreed to the demands and made the options available to all developers, Epic would have an advantage. I don't know that that's the case. Steam, the Humble Store, GOG and Microsoft (just to name a few) would all be happy to compete if the terms were right.
scarface74 6y ago
They also have the advantage of being a trusted brand, Epic “Google put up scary warnings about downloading apps outside of the Play store may cause security issues” Also Epic: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vulnerability-leads-to-googleepic-games-spat/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vu...
ntsplnkv2 6y ago
Of course it was - Epic doesn't care about other developers, or about the consumer. It just wants to rip off more kids without Apple taking a cut.
hatenberg 6y ago
Thats a hilarious way of saying 'At least the highway robbers are charging the same at all crossings so I don't have the burden of figuring out what is the cheapest path'

by graeme 6y ago

tikhonj 6y ago

Other companies would not be able to run an appstore, but they would be able to list their work on 3rd-party appstores (and maybe have their own direct distribution channel like a website?). The point is to allow competition. One thing that would enable is narrow appstores with active curation—sort of what Apple promises but, if the store is fully of scammy games, doesn't quite deliver. A company could run a game-specific store with much stricter requirements than Apple's store.

_qulr 6y ago
It really depends on what "app store" means. Is an indie Mac developers's web store an app store? I'd say yes. They just sell their own apps, not the apps of other developers. I'm not sure why legally this would be restricted to only app stores that contain the apps of multiple developers.
threeseed 6y ago
So your idea is that the world should revolve around developers. As a user instead of going to one private, trusted and secure store I now have to visit dozens. All of which are going to be competing on price which means they will look to sell my user data to make money. And what makes anyone think that the App Stores will simply not be dominated by Amazon, Epic, Valve etc like most gaming is today. In which case this is all about transferring money from one large corporation to another.
- gridlockd 6y ago
  You don't "have" to do anything. If I don't want to sell my product on the App Store, or if I have to make you pay more for it, I risk losing you as a customer. That's a trade-off every developer is aware of. Most apps that can publish on the App Store, will still publish on the App Store. On the PC, Epic sometimes has to shell out a lot of money to get an exclusive release, because a lot of people just use Steam. However, a lot of apps can't publish on the App Store, because of the strict anti-competitive rules.
- graeme 6y ago
  > All of which are going to be competing on price which means they will look to sell my user data to make money. Didn’t even occur to me. It’s the obvious way app stores can earn money if there was some legislated effort to cut the commission fee and force multiple stores.
- smichel17 6y ago
  On my Linux desktop, I install sodtware from multiple different locations, administered from a single tool. I do the same on my Android phone, with F-Droid. The repository model is basically the best of both worlds, from my perspective.
yibg 6y ago
Having a bunch of app stores to choose from sounds like a way worse experience for the end user. I'd have to jump between different app stores to see where a particular app exists and also probably compare the different prices. On top of that I'd have to decide which app store is trust worthy.
- zachm0 6y ago
  If I'm reading this right, you are saying that competition would be worse for consumers? Can you name a scenario where opening up a market to competitors has been a net negative to consumers? I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I haven't thought about it for very long. Yes going around to different stores to find the best price is annoying, but you are under no obligation to do it. You can't say shopping around is a worse experience for the end user because it is a problem entirely of their own making. If shopping around is that much of a hassle you could always just stick to the Apple App Store.
  - arugulum 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_crash_of_1983 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_crash_of_1983
  - ryandrake 6y ago
    As a user it’s annoying. On a PC in order to access every game you need to have Steam, the Epic store, the Microsoft store, all these stores... argh! You want game X? Only on Store A. Game Y? Only on Store B! What a pain for no reason! I just want one store that has everything in it. Why do we always have to have a dozen competing versions of everything?! Same with Netflix, and Hulu, and Prime, and Disney, and HBOgo, and on and on and on. As a user it’s on my shoulders to navigate all this complexity. Yuck! This whole “single AppStore” thing is only a big problem to developers. That’s why it gets so much attention and air time here because only developers whine about it and we are all developers. As an end user I just want one app distribution system to worry about.
    - mdoms 6y ago

slg 6y ago

Why would developers need to run their own app store to compete with Epic? It sounds like if Epic gets their way there would be a plethora of app stores which would all need to compete against each other for developers. The end result would be store fees dropping to the point in which they are more closely aligned with the value the store provides. That is good for all developers (although whether it is good for all users is debatable).

abc-xyz 6y ago
I’m not so sure the end result would be fees dropping considering Android allows third-party stores and they still charge 30% like Apple.
- zwily 6y ago
  I’ve been confused about this since they filed suit against Google... don’t they have what they want there, the ability to run their own App Store? So it’s not that they want to run their own store, but... what? They want to be in Google Play but without the same cut? I haven’t seen anyone address that.
  - paulgb 6y ago
    There argument is basically that, while it's true on a technical level that non-Google app stores can exist, as a matter of practice Google strongarms OEMs into not shipping phones with them. (I'm not sure how true this is, just my interpretation of what their lawyers argue) https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/21759099/file0.243586135368002.pdf https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/21759099/f...
    - paulgb 6y ago
      *their (missed the edit window)
    - anoncake 6y ago
      And stores the user themselves are severly crippled as they can't upgrade or install any apps in the background.

gridlockd 6y ago

First of all, the app store is not a level playing field. Many companies get special treatment, important apps like WeChat (which is effectively an App Store) get to ignore the rules. A multitude of App Stores on iOS would create competition among the stores themselves. For instance, if you want to publish on the Epic Store, they only take a 15% cut, therefore games on there can be cheaper. Lastly, who says you need to run an app store to publish apps? Being able to publish directly is viable on other platforms, after all. iOS has a good-enough security model so that even malicious apps are limited in what they can do. Apple does not and can not scan for malicious behavior within that security framework anyway.

threeseed 6y ago
> Apple does not and can not scan for malicious behavior within that security framework anyway They have been doing this since the beginning of the App Store. We know they scan binaries for use of private APIs so it wouldn't surprise me if they are looking for other ways to get around the OS.
- gridlockd 6y ago
  That's scanning for private APIs, not scanning for malicious behavior. Use of private APIs is not inherently malicious and the security framework can not rely on private APIs not being used.

Animats 6y ago

Epic doesn't even want to run an "app store". They want to sell Fortnite items to Fortnite players to be used in Fortnite's world. Those objects never leave the Fortnite ecosystem. They're not installed on the phone as "apps". Some of them have no client side presence at all.

graeme 6y ago
You clearly didn’t read the letter. Point #2 specifically asks for an Epic Games app store on iOS. Available through the iOS app store but also through sideloading (direct installation).

stfwn 6y ago

> Even if Apple agreed to the demands and made the options available to all developers, Epic would have an advantage. I don't know that that's the case. Steam, the Humble Store, GOG and Microsoft (just to name a few) would all be happy to compete if the terms were right.

scarface74 6y ago

They also have the advantage of being a trusted brand, Epic “Google put up scary warnings about downloading apps outside of the Play store may cause security issues” Also Epic: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vulnerability-leads-to-googleepic-games-spat/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vu...

ntsplnkv2 6y ago

Of course it was - Epic doesn't care about other developers, or about the consumer. It just wants to rip off more kids without Apple taking a cut.

hatenberg 6y ago

Thats a hilarious way of saying 'At least the highway robbers are charging the same at all crossings so I don't have the burden of figuring out what is the cheapest path'