3 ms·

Man I wish you’d quit spamming every redux thread with this stuff. You’re not solving any problems, you’re just promoting your framework.

vosper 6y ago
I don't think this comment is fair - acemarke does show up in virtually every Redux discussion on HN, but I've found his comments to be reasonable and helpful. I don't think labeling them as spam is justified. He makes an effort to address specific points, doesn't get defensive or angry, and seems to take criticism and feedback seriously. He has responded to my own critiques of Redux in a reasoned way. I think that if someone is going to express claims or opinions about a library on HN then we should be happy to see an expert response, rather than letting the discussion become one-sided. Sure, there could be a bias, but I think we all win by having both sides represented. Do we really want to discourage that?
- weeksie 6y ago
  I see it as someone clout-chasing for their framework. A framework that promotes questionable practices. Framework developers and working engineers have diverging interests. The problem with his style is that he parades himself as an expert but he's emphatically not an expert. He's a guy with an agenda to push his open source framework. I understand where the bias toward politeness comes from, but that makes groups like HN susceptible to this kind of pretense to authority. He's actively making working developers' lives worse by promoting this stuff and it's frustrating. Perhaps I shouldn't give a shit.
  - acemarke 6y ago
    > The problem with his style is that he parades himself as an expert but he's emphatically not an expert Erm... I've been a Redux maintainer since mid-2016. I oversaw development of React-Redux v5 and v6, wrote v7 by myself, and directed development of the hooks API in v7.1 over the course of multiple 250+-comment issue threads. I've written the Redux FAQ, "Structuring Reducers" usage guide, the "Style Guide" best practices page, almost all of the Redux Toolkit docs, and the new 25K-word "Redux Essentials" real-world tutorial. I've written about 150K words of Redux-related blog posts, including tutorials, history, technical architecture, and best practices. I've given multiple conference talks on how Redux works and how to use it. Even if you don't agree with the approaches I'm recommending that folks use... if _I_ don't qualify as an "expert" on this topic, who _does_? :) If you have actual substantive technical arguments for other approaches we should be recommending, please feel free to open up an issue to discuss them. I'm genuinely always interested in ways we can make it easier for people to learn and use Redux.
    - weeksie 6y ago
      Lots of blog posts, tutorials, etc. blah blah blah. How many complicated applications have you built with Redux at their center? Because that's the part that's missing from your list of qualifiers for being an expert.
      - acemarke 6y ago
        Two, because I've spent the last 9+ years of my career working on the same couple apps :) But both were pretty complex - true SPAs, no routing, lots of complex client-side state manipulation going on. In fact, the first one is actually what inspired everything that I showed in my "Practical Redux" blog tutorial series, since I couldn't show off work stuff publicly. But hey, if that list of stuff I've done isn't good enough for you, apparently no one in this world qualifies as an "expert" in any topic :)
        weeksie 6y ago
        You've worked on two apps. Besides that you've been a part of the evangelist ecosystem for a tremendously simple framework. You are not what I could call an expert in using Redux. You are almost certainly an expert in Redux's internals but that's not what we're discussing. In fact the root of the problem is exactly that you've conflated one for the other.
        acemarke 6y ago
        I know I'm feeding a troll here, so last response. I've looked at hundreds of other codebases, ranging from beginner apps to complex enterprise-level apps. I've talked to thousands of people who are using Redux in many, _many_ different ways, and catalogued hundreds of libraries people have made to add on to Redux. I _know_ how people are using Redux in practice, and what kinds of problems they're running into. I'm quite serious when I say I'd like you to write up an issue with some specific concrete feedback listing your concerns with how we currently teach Redux and recommend people use it, especially since I'm working on an ongoing revamp of our core docs. I obviously can't guarantee any _changes_, but I'm very interested in having substantive discussions in a more suitable venue than HN comments. Whether or not you choose to take me up on that is up to you.
  - jackewiehose 6y ago
    > Framework developers and working engineers have diverging interests how is that?
    - weeksie 6y ago
      Framework developers want you to use their framework. Engineers want to solve a problem in a manner that works best for their organization. The two incentives sometimes intersect but that is by no means a given.
    - orange8 6y ago
      A framework tends to want to capture or serve all possible use cases, while app developers want to serve a single, specific use case.
  - fourstar 6y ago
    Bitterness: The Comment. You can write a short story about this on your blog, now that you’re a “full-time writer”.

vosper 6y ago

I don't think this comment is fair - acemarke does show up in virtually every Redux discussion on HN, but I've found his comments to be reasonable and helpful. I don't think labeling them as spam is justified. He makes an effort to address specific points, doesn't get defensive or angry, and seems to take criticism and feedback seriously. He has responded to my own critiques of Redux in a reasoned way. I think that if someone is going to express claims or opinions about a library on HN then we should be happy to see an expert response, rather than letting the discussion become one-sided. Sure, there could be a bias, but I think we all win by having both sides represented. Do we really want to discourage that?

weeksie 6y ago
I see it as someone clout-chasing for their framework. A framework that promotes questionable practices. Framework developers and working engineers have diverging interests. The problem with his style is that he parades himself as an expert but he's emphatically not an expert. He's a guy with an agenda to push his open source framework. I understand where the bias toward politeness comes from, but that makes groups like HN susceptible to this kind of pretense to authority. He's actively making working developers' lives worse by promoting this stuff and it's frustrating. Perhaps I shouldn't give a shit.
- acemarke 6y ago
  > The problem with his style is that he parades himself as an expert but he's emphatically not an expert Erm... I've been a Redux maintainer since mid-2016. I oversaw development of React-Redux v5 and v6, wrote v7 by myself, and directed development of the hooks API in v7.1 over the course of multiple 250+-comment issue threads. I've written the Redux FAQ, "Structuring Reducers" usage guide, the "Style Guide" best practices page, almost all of the Redux Toolkit docs, and the new 25K-word "Redux Essentials" real-world tutorial. I've written about 150K words of Redux-related blog posts, including tutorials, history, technical architecture, and best practices. I've given multiple conference talks on how Redux works and how to use it. Even if you don't agree with the approaches I'm recommending that folks use... if _I_ don't qualify as an "expert" on this topic, who _does_? :) If you have actual substantive technical arguments for other approaches we should be recommending, please feel free to open up an issue to discuss them. I'm genuinely always interested in ways we can make it easier for people to learn and use Redux.
  - weeksie 6y ago
    Lots of blog posts, tutorials, etc. blah blah blah. How many complicated applications have you built with Redux at their center? Because that's the part that's missing from your list of qualifiers for being an expert.
    - acemarke 6y ago
      Two, because I've spent the last 9+ years of my career working on the same couple apps :) But both were pretty complex - true SPAs, no routing, lots of complex client-side state manipulation going on. In fact, the first one is actually what inspired everything that I showed in my "Practical Redux" blog tutorial series, since I couldn't show off work stuff publicly. But hey, if that list of stuff I've done isn't good enough for you, apparently no one in this world qualifies as an "expert" in any topic :)
      - weeksie 6y ago
        You've worked on two apps. Besides that you've been a part of the evangelist ecosystem for a tremendously simple framework. You are not what I could call an expert in using Redux. You are almost certainly an expert in Redux's internals but that's not what we're discussing. In fact the root of the problem is exactly that you've conflated one for the other.
        acemarke 6y ago
        I know I'm feeding a troll here, so last response. I've looked at hundreds of other codebases, ranging from beginner apps to complex enterprise-level apps. I've talked to thousands of people who are using Redux in many, _many_ different ways, and catalogued hundreds of libraries people have made to add on to Redux. I _know_ how people are using Redux in practice, and what kinds of problems they're running into. I'm quite serious when I say I'd like you to write up an issue with some specific concrete feedback listing your concerns with how we currently teach Redux and recommend people use it, especially since I'm working on an ongoing revamp of our core docs. I obviously can't guarantee any _changes_, but I'm very interested in having substantive discussions in a more suitable venue than HN comments. Whether or not you choose to take me up on that is up to you.
- jackewiehose 6y ago
  > Framework developers and working engineers have diverging interests how is that?
  - weeksie 6y ago
    Framework developers want you to use their framework. Engineers want to solve a problem in a manner that works best for their organization. The two incentives sometimes intersect but that is by no means a given.
  - orange8 6y ago
    A framework tends to want to capture or serve all possible use cases, while app developers want to serve a single, specific use case.
- fourstar 6y ago
  Bitterness: The Comment. You can write a short story about this on your blog, now that you’re a “full-time writer”.