4 ms·

Warfare is only sometimes about good sportsmanship. During the part where you’re trying to kill each other, it’s totally fair game to pull more G if you can. I

by parsimo2010 6y ago

Warfare is only sometimes about good sportsmanship. During the part where you’re trying to kill each other, it’s totally fair game to pull more G if you can. It’s also fair to use a better jet with better missiles of you have them. Once (if) the other guy has ejected and is under canopy, then it’s important to be a good sport again- no shooting at him while he’s defenseless, and if you capture him then you have to treat him with dignity as a POW.

jvzr 6y ago
Beer missiles are the best!
- parsimo2010 6y ago
  Thanks for the catch. I edited my typo so now everyone will be super confused when they read your comment.
arethuza 6y ago
And if he loses an artifical leg during the ejection process you may let a replacement be parachuted in: https://www.rafbf.org/news-and-blogs/operation-leg-%E2%80%93-pilot-unlike-any-other https://www.rafbf.org/news-and-blogs/operation-leg-%E2%80%93...
- WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
  See, there are weird war stories that if we turned into a movie, people would think it's Hollywood embellishing.
  - gadders 6y ago
    They did make it into a movie, but not sure if it covers the parachuted legs incident: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reach_for_the_Sky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reach_for_the_Sky
  - arethuza 6y ago
    There is a movie about Bader: Reach for the Sky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reach_for_the_Sky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reach_for_the_Sky I can't remember if it includes the bit about parachuting in a replacement artificial leg... I can't imagine there was much desire to portray Hermann Göring in a positive way in the mid 1950s!
  - philwelch 6y ago
    This is true. A Bridge Too Far both includes incidents that actually happened but were deemed unrealistic by critics, as well as omits certain details specifically because they would be assumed to be unrealistic. The one movie I would love to see is one about the battle for Castle Itter toward the end of the war, where Americans, German soldiers who had defected to the resistance, a deserting SS officer, and a group of prisoners including two former French prime ministers, two French generals, Charles de Gaulle’s sister, and a pre-war French tennis champion all teamed up against an SS force attempting to recapture the castle and the VIP prisoners within. Which sounds like a completely absurd movie but it actually happened.
- ufmace 6y ago
  That's really cool. But I gotta wonder - why didn't the Germans just give the guy a new artificial leg instead of letting the Brits parachute drop one in? Seems like it'd be easier for everyone.
  - xiaopanga 6y ago
    There may be specific fit issues for a new artificial leg. Most prosthesis require quite a bit of fit adjustment.
  - philwelch 6y ago
    Those are usually custom fit to the individual and the Germans were probably happy not to take the effort of repeating all that work.
ourmandave 6y ago
Once (if) the other guy has ejected and is under canopy, then it’s important to be a good sport again- no shooting at him while he’s defenseless, and if you capture him then you have to treat him with dignity as a POW. But what if the simulation is a Spielberg movie and if you let the AI go, later on he'll kill Tom Hanks? It's like the Trolley Problem but weighted by how much you liked Joe Versus the Volcano.
derivagral 6y ago
Is that second part still a thing? I know ww2 got hairy, but as a regular civilian I don't know a ton of context about whether this was isolated or the start of a trend. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident
- parsimo2010 6y ago
  Some thoughts: A) The "law of armed conflict" isn't a formal law, it's a collection of treaties recognized by most countries, and each country can have a slightly different interpretation. But most of the written stuff only goes back to the Geneva Conventions, and before that it was just tradition that kept everyone in line. Basically, if your side didn't follow tradition then there was a chance that you wouldn't be treated well if you got captured. So people mostly behaved themselves. B) All (civilized) forces agree on the idea that it is unethical to attack non-combatants. There are grey areas, but everyone agrees that a pilot is no longer a combatant after his plane is disabled. If they land in your territory you can capture them and hold them prisoner, but you can't kill them, even if they were dropping bombs on you a few hours earlier. Similarly, if you sink a ship you are not supposed to kill the survivors. C) Accidents happen and communication between enemies isn't totally reliable. Although you aren't supposed to kill people engaged in life-saving or rescue operations because they are non-combatants, what are you going to think if you see an enemy ship or plane approaching your defenseless friends? Sometimes people do bad stuff intentionally though, and hope that the lawyers can make a decent case if they get caught. Considering that evidence often gets destroyed and that dead men can't give testimony, they often get away with it. D) A non-combatant can lose their protected status by engaging in combat. If a downed pilot pulls out his sidearm and starts shooting while you're trying to capture him, then you can shoot back. You can't shoot a clearly marked medic trying to save someone's life, but if that medic picks up a gun then you can shoot them. Paratroopers are practically defenseless while they are under canopy but they are considered combatants, so you can shoot them in the air. E) AI probably won't be granted personhood until after they demonstrate sentience, so computer pilots probably won't get any of the courtesies discussed above. Source: this was made very clear to to me at SERE school and is made clear to everyone at any SERE school regardless of branch. The exact phrase my instructor used was, "don't start bopping people on the head if you get caught behind enemy lines, but if it looks like the enemy isn't playing fair then you might as well get to bopping."

jvzr 6y ago

Beer missiles are the best!

parsimo2010 6y ago
Thanks for the catch. I edited my typo so now everyone will be super confused when they read your comment.

arethuza 6y ago

And if he loses an artifical leg during the ejection process you may let a replacement be parachuted in: https://www.rafbf.org/news-and-blogs/operation-leg-%E2%80%93-pilot-unlike-any-other https://www.rafbf.org/news-and-blogs/operation-leg-%E2%80%93...

WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
See, there are weird war stories that if we turned into a movie, people would think it's Hollywood embellishing.
- gadders 6y ago
  They did make it into a movie, but not sure if it covers the parachuted legs incident: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reach_for_the_Sky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reach_for_the_Sky
- arethuza 6y ago
  There is a movie about Bader: Reach for the Sky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reach_for_the_Sky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reach_for_the_Sky I can't remember if it includes the bit about parachuting in a replacement artificial leg... I can't imagine there was much desire to portray Hermann Göring in a positive way in the mid 1950s!
- philwelch 6y ago
  This is true. A Bridge Too Far both includes incidents that actually happened but were deemed unrealistic by critics, as well as omits certain details specifically because they would be assumed to be unrealistic. The one movie I would love to see is one about the battle for Castle Itter toward the end of the war, where Americans, German soldiers who had defected to the resistance, a deserting SS officer, and a group of prisoners including two former French prime ministers, two French generals, Charles de Gaulle’s sister, and a pre-war French tennis champion all teamed up against an SS force attempting to recapture the castle and the VIP prisoners within. Which sounds like a completely absurd movie but it actually happened.
ufmace 6y ago
That's really cool. But I gotta wonder - why didn't the Germans just give the guy a new artificial leg instead of letting the Brits parachute drop one in? Seems like it'd be easier for everyone.
- xiaopanga 6y ago
  There may be specific fit issues for a new artificial leg. Most prosthesis require quite a bit of fit adjustment.
- philwelch 6y ago
  Those are usually custom fit to the individual and the Germans were probably happy not to take the effort of repeating all that work.

ourmandave 6y ago

Once (if) the other guy has ejected and is under canopy, then it’s important to be a good sport again- no shooting at him while he’s defenseless, and if you capture him then you have to treat him with dignity as a POW. But what if the simulation is a Spielberg movie and if you let the AI go, later on he'll kill Tom Hanks? It's like the Trolley Problem but weighted by how much you liked Joe Versus the Volcano.

derivagral 6y ago

Is that second part still a thing? I know ww2 got hairy, but as a regular civilian I don't know a ton of context about whether this was isolated or the start of a trend. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident

parsimo2010 6y ago
Some thoughts: A) The "law of armed conflict" isn't a formal law, it's a collection of treaties recognized by most countries, and each country can have a slightly different interpretation. But most of the written stuff only goes back to the Geneva Conventions, and before that it was just tradition that kept everyone in line. Basically, if your side didn't follow tradition then there was a chance that you wouldn't be treated well if you got captured. So people mostly behaved themselves. B) All (civilized) forces agree on the idea that it is unethical to attack non-combatants. There are grey areas, but everyone agrees that a pilot is no longer a combatant after his plane is disabled. If they land in your territory you can capture them and hold them prisoner, but you can't kill them, even if they were dropping bombs on you a few hours earlier. Similarly, if you sink a ship you are not supposed to kill the survivors. C) Accidents happen and communication between enemies isn't totally reliable. Although you aren't supposed to kill people engaged in life-saving or rescue operations because they are non-combatants, what are you going to think if you see an enemy ship or plane approaching your defenseless friends? Sometimes people do bad stuff intentionally though, and hope that the lawyers can make a decent case if they get caught. Considering that evidence often gets destroyed and that dead men can't give testimony, they often get away with it. D) A non-combatant can lose their protected status by engaging in combat. If a downed pilot pulls out his sidearm and starts shooting while you're trying to capture him, then you can shoot back. You can't shoot a clearly marked medic trying to save someone's life, but if that medic picks up a gun then you can shoot them. Paratroopers are practically defenseless while they are under canopy but they are considered combatants, so you can shoot them in the air. E) AI probably won't be granted personhood until after they demonstrate sentience, so computer pilots probably won't get any of the courtesies discussed above. Source: this was made very clear to to me at SERE school and is made clear to everyone at any SERE school regardless of branch. The exact phrase my instructor used was, "don't start bopping people on the head if you get caught behind enemy lines, but if it looks like the enemy isn't playing fair then you might as well get to bopping."