5 ms·

Isn't it unfair to the human pilot, as the AI can pull G-Force maneuvers that'll otherwise kill the human pilot?

ethagknight 6y ago
From the article, the pilot was sitting in a simulator. It’s also unfair to the pilot that he or she was not given all appropriate measures to avoid a gunslinger dogfight using long range weapons, teamwork, and stealthiness, but that wasn’t the point of the simulation.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Exactly. If two fighters are in a dogfight in 2020 it's because an entire network of systems has failed. This exercise simply isn't reflective of modern tactics.
  - thret 6y ago
    Then why do we train for it constantly in coalition exercises?
    - afarrell 6y ago
      Sometimes entire networks of systems fail.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      Because having the training is preferable to nothing in the same way that having poorly equipped, poorly trained fresh recruits manning your trenches is better than nothing.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - willvarfar 6y ago
    Open warfare is rare. Most fighters patrolling near potential adversaries have complicated rules of engagement that give up their bvr advantages. So you’re in your fancy fighter, patrolling a no fly zone, and you’re vectored to do a viz id on something that turns out to be a helicopter. Now you’re sweating it in case what could be an aid flight is actually going to fire an rpg at you as you pass, or if the whole thing is bait to bring you over aa or an ambush by some outclassed fighter that’s gonna magically arrive on your six...
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      When war starts someone always gets the jump on someone. Look at the strategic picture. That's one airframe. It's acceptable losses in exchange for not shooting at things you can't see prior to open hostilities.
- KineticLensman 6y ago
  Yes. He was also wearing an operationally unrealistic VR helmet. So, he wasn't flying a real platform for which he would have had good muscle memory for real flight controls. This is actually a big deal. Very small differences between a sim and the real platform could be showstoppers for pilots (e.g. the contrived example of the 'fire' and 'radio' buttons being swapped in the sims vs. the real planes). Sims that are used for real combat training have to be exceptionally high-fidelity in all aspects that affect a given training task.
rangibaby 6y ago
Wouldn’t it work that way IRL too?
parsimo2010 6y ago
Warfare is only sometimes about good sportsmanship. During the part where you’re trying to kill each other, it’s totally fair game to pull more G if you can. It’s also fair to use a better jet with better missiles of you have them. Once (if) the other guy has ejected and is under canopy, then it’s important to be a good sport again- no shooting at him while he’s defenseless, and if you capture him then you have to treat him with dignity as a POW.
- jvzr 6y ago
  Beer missiles are the best!
  - parsimo2010 6y ago
    Thanks for the catch. I edited my typo so now everyone will be super confused when they read your comment.
- arethuza 6y ago
  And if he loses an artifical leg during the ejection process you may let a replacement be parachuted in: https://www.rafbf.org/news-and-blogs/operation-leg-%E2%80%93-pilot-unlike-any-other https://www.rafbf.org/news-and-blogs/operation-leg-%E2%80%93...
  - WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
    See, there are weird war stories that if we turned into a movie, people would think it's Hollywood embellishing.
    - gadders 6y ago
      They did make it into a movie, but not sure if it covers the parachuted legs incident: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reach_for_the_Sky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reach_for_the_Sky
    - arethuza 6y ago
TuringNYC 6y ago
I saw the page and assumed the AI had boundaries on maneuvers that reflected the real-world boundaries on those aircraft. Otherwise, the AI can easily win -- fly at light speed to behind the opponent, fight, fly at light speed away. The only thing to do with a simulation like this would be to put boundaries on the simulator.
- tiku 6y ago
  The boundaries are on the human body, not on the AI. So it's more about speed and certain turns etc.
  - TuringNYC 6y ago
    There are definitely also boundaries on any aircraft. There are speed limits, acceleration limits, etc. The AI is just controlling the aircraft, so any simulation where the AI isnt bound by the aircraft's limitations would not be a good setup. This isn't different from simulation based training of autonomous vehicles. Imagine if in an AV simulation, the AV controller could opt to accelerate 0-60 in 1 second, or if it could suddenly go 300mph to skip an up coming collision, etc.
dpflan 6y ago
Indeed. Reminds me of the Machine People and Hesperus in House of Suns discussing how they can push the limits of the spaceships that humans physically could not survive. - House of Suns: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Suns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Suns
jmnicolas 6y ago
All is fair in love and war.

From the article, the pilot was sitting in a simulator. It’s also unfair to the pilot that he or she was not given all appropriate measures to avoid a gunslinger dogfight using long range weapons, teamwork, and stealthiness, but that wasn’t the point of the simulation.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
Exactly. If two fighters are in a dogfight in 2020 it's because an entire network of systems has failed. This exercise simply isn't reflective of modern tactics.
- thret 6y ago
  Then why do we train for it constantly in coalition exercises?
  - afarrell 6y ago
    Sometimes entire networks of systems fail.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    Because having the training is preferable to nothing in the same way that having poorly equipped, poorly trained fresh recruits manning your trenches is better than nothing.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- willvarfar 6y ago
  Open warfare is rare. Most fighters patrolling near potential adversaries have complicated rules of engagement that give up their bvr advantages. So you’re in your fancy fighter, patrolling a no fly zone, and you’re vectored to do a viz id on something that turns out to be a helicopter. Now you’re sweating it in case what could be an aid flight is actually going to fire an rpg at you as you pass, or if the whole thing is bait to bring you over aa or an ambush by some outclassed fighter that’s gonna magically arrive on your six...
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    When war starts someone always gets the jump on someone. Look at the strategic picture. That's one airframe. It's acceptable losses in exchange for not shooting at things you can't see prior to open hostilities.
KineticLensman 6y ago
Yes. He was also wearing an operationally unrealistic VR helmet. So, he wasn't flying a real platform for which he would have had good muscle memory for real flight controls. This is actually a big deal. Very small differences between a sim and the real platform could be showstoppers for pilots (e.g. the contrived example of the 'fire' and 'radio' buttons being swapped in the sims vs. the real planes). Sims that are used for real combat training have to be exceptionally high-fidelity in all aspects that affect a given training task.

rangibaby 6y ago

Wouldn’t it work that way IRL too?

parsimo2010 6y ago

Warfare is only sometimes about good sportsmanship. During the part where you’re trying to kill each other, it’s totally fair game to pull more G if you can. It’s also fair to use a better jet with better missiles of you have them. Once (if) the other guy has ejected and is under canopy, then it’s important to be a good sport again- no shooting at him while he’s defenseless, and if you capture him then you have to treat him with dignity as a POW.

jvzr 6y ago
Beer missiles are the best!
- parsimo2010 6y ago
  Thanks for the catch. I edited my typo so now everyone will be super confused when they read your comment.
arethuza 6y ago
And if he loses an artifical leg during the ejection process you may let a replacement be parachuted in: https://www.rafbf.org/news-and-blogs/operation-leg-%E2%80%93-pilot-unlike-any-other https://www.rafbf.org/news-and-blogs/operation-leg-%E2%80%93...
- WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
  See, there are weird war stories that if we turned into a movie, people would think it's Hollywood embellishing.
  - gadders 6y ago
    They did make it into a movie, but not sure if it covers the parachuted legs incident: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reach_for_the_Sky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reach_for_the_Sky
  - arethuza 6y ago

TuringNYC 6y ago

I saw the page and assumed the AI had boundaries on maneuvers that reflected the real-world boundaries on those aircraft. Otherwise, the AI can easily win -- fly at light speed to behind the opponent, fight, fly at light speed away. The only thing to do with a simulation like this would be to put boundaries on the simulator.

tiku 6y ago
The boundaries are on the human body, not on the AI. So it's more about speed and certain turns etc.
- TuringNYC 6y ago
  There are definitely also boundaries on any aircraft. There are speed limits, acceleration limits, etc. The AI is just controlling the aircraft, so any simulation where the AI isnt bound by the aircraft's limitations would not be a good setup. This isn't different from simulation based training of autonomous vehicles. Imagine if in an AV simulation, the AV controller could opt to accelerate 0-60 in 1 second, or if it could suddenly go 300mph to skip an up coming collision, etc.

dpflan 6y ago

Indeed. Reminds me of the Machine People and Hesperus in House of Suns discussing how they can push the limits of the spaceships that humans physically could not survive. - House of Suns: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Suns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Suns

jmnicolas 6y ago

All is fair in love and war.