4 ms·

As an immigrant who has been living in France (Paris) for 7 years, I didn't personally experience any racism, on the contrary, my collegues, neighbours and stra

by ttwy2020 6y ago

As an immigrant who has been living in France (Paris) for 7 years, I didn't personally experience any racism, on the contrary, my collegues, neighbours and strangers, all treat me respectfully as I would treat them. On the other hand, my wife, being a Hijabi, did experience it in subtle ways (if we can call it racism): sometimes not-so-friendly gazes from strangers, she can not go to the public swimpool because burkini is not allowed, and she struggled for a year to find work even though she had a good engineering degree (the reason was not always disclosed, but some recruiters did explicitly tell her that it was because of her Hijab). Which is different from the UK and other European countries from what I have been told. I don't watch French media, but I hear that that's where racism mostly emerges. And I must admit, the behaviour of some immigrant communities (especially some north-african ones, saying this as a north-african myself), partly justifies the hostile attitude towards them.

realusername 6y ago
> (the reason was not always disclosed, but some recruiters did explicitly tell her that it was because of her Hijab). Which is different from the UK and other European countries from what I have been told. That's because the French culture does not work on the same basis as the UK and northern european countries. The french society strongly goes towards integration and not multiculturalism. It has a lot of deep consequences in the society, starting that people expect you to identify and behave as French, regardless of your background, skin color or anything else. This means you will really be treated as a local from day one and just a small racist minority will really care about your background. But it also means as a double edged sword that if people perceive that you reject this identity, they will think that you are rejecting the society and will react negatively.
- ttwy2020 6y ago
  > That's because the French culture does not work on the same basis as the UK and northern european countries. That's really interesting to know. I wish such labels (strong integration vs multiculturalism) were more explicit, like part of an "identity card" for countries. Do you know what the root of this cultural difference is? Historically, has it always been present?
  - hegtor 6y ago
    France has a culture of "universalism" which dates back to the Lumières period which can be seen as one of the roots to this attitude. This cultural tendency is very visible when you compare the way France handled colonies compared to the UK : France tended to impose its value to "enlighten" colonised countries, while the UK srayed much more in the realms of economic exploitation without getting so involved in trying to impose british culture and values.
- P-ala-din 6y ago
  The underlying assumption is if you wear a hijab, you're not integrated. I honestly feel like this is just religious discrimation with extra steps.
  - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
    But then your underlying assumption is that religion isn’t part of cultural integration. Why is religion separate from culture? I would say it’s a subset of culture.
    - exhilaration 6y ago
      What about your name? Do you have to give that up too to culturally integrate? I'm sure you've seen the articles about CVs rejected by French firms for having Jewish and Muslim names: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/11/23/new-research-shows-that-french-muslims-experience-extraordinary-discrimination-in-the-job-market/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/11/2...
      - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
        That absolutely sucks, and does put the rejections in a bad light, but names don’t directly affect your behavior. Religion is different in that regard.
      - realusername 6y ago
        > What about your name? Do you have to give that up too to culturally integrate? In the past you had that too yes, your name was transformed into a French equivalent.
    - P-ala-din 6y ago
      - I mean freedom of religion is a human right. - So In a majority christian state, is it ok to discriminate against jews?
      - 6y ago
exhilaration 6y ago
I'm South Asian, grew up in Switzerland, live in the U.S. now and this is the same impression I have of non-UK European countries. Minorities aren't getting beaten up in the streets but there's silent racism in employment. What my mother tells me is that you'll never rise above a certain level in most companies, there's a glass ceiling keeping minorities out. Of course there are exceptions but they're rare.

realusername 6y ago

> (the reason was not always disclosed, but some recruiters did explicitly tell her that it was because of her Hijab). Which is different from the UK and other European countries from what I have been told. That's because the French culture does not work on the same basis as the UK and northern european countries. The french society strongly goes towards integration and not multiculturalism. It has a lot of deep consequences in the society, starting that people expect you to identify and behave as French, regardless of your background, skin color or anything else. This means you will really be treated as a local from day one and just a small racist minority will really care about your background. But it also means as a double edged sword that if people perceive that you reject this identity, they will think that you are rejecting the society and will react negatively.

ttwy2020 6y ago
> That's because the French culture does not work on the same basis as the UK and northern european countries. That's really interesting to know. I wish such labels (strong integration vs multiculturalism) were more explicit, like part of an "identity card" for countries. Do you know what the root of this cultural difference is? Historically, has it always been present?
- hegtor 6y ago
  France has a culture of "universalism" which dates back to the Lumières period which can be seen as one of the roots to this attitude. This cultural tendency is very visible when you compare the way France handled colonies compared to the UK : France tended to impose its value to "enlighten" colonised countries, while the UK srayed much more in the realms of economic exploitation without getting so involved in trying to impose british culture and values.
P-ala-din 6y ago
The underlying assumption is if you wear a hijab, you're not integrated. I honestly feel like this is just religious discrimation with extra steps.
- read_if_gay_ 6y ago
  But then your underlying assumption is that religion isn’t part of cultural integration. Why is religion separate from culture? I would say it’s a subset of culture.
  - exhilaration 6y ago
    What about your name? Do you have to give that up too to culturally integrate? I'm sure you've seen the articles about CVs rejected by French firms for having Jewish and Muslim names: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/11/23/new-research-shows-that-french-muslims-experience-extraordinary-discrimination-in-the-job-market/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/11/2...
    - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
      That absolutely sucks, and does put the rejections in a bad light, but names don’t directly affect your behavior. Religion is different in that regard.
    - realusername 6y ago
      > What about your name? Do you have to give that up too to culturally integrate? In the past you had that too yes, your name was transformed into a French equivalent.
  - P-ala-din 6y ago
    - I mean freedom of religion is a human right. - So In a majority christian state, is it ok to discriminate against jews?
    - 6y ago

exhilaration 6y ago

I'm South Asian, grew up in Switzerland, live in the U.S. now and this is the same impression I have of non-UK European countries. Minorities aren't getting beaten up in the streets but there's silent racism in employment. What my mother tells me is that you'll never rise above a certain level in most companies, there's a glass ceiling keeping minorities out. Of course there are exceptions but they're rare.