5 ms·

Why do you say you lose your negotiating power? The union will ensure that you have the same basic rights (and salary) that everyone else in the field. That doe

by dagurp 6y ago

Why do you say you lose your negotiating power? The union will ensure that you have the same basic rights (and salary) that everyone else in the field. That doesn't mean you can't ask for a raise or a higher starting salary.

kerosene 6y ago
What typically happens with unions is the agreement will likely contain a salary guideline adhered to most of the time, which diminishes individual leverage.
- zaarn 6y ago
  Your overall leverage is increased through the union so you are more likely to get a fair compensation than before.
  - adriancr 6y ago
    not if the union negotiates upper limits on compensation. Or it negotiates yearly raise brackets. You can negotiate better individually if you are good and there arent union enforced guidelines, if you're not, the union deal would work out better.
    - PierceJoy 6y ago
      Professional athlete unions are a strong counter example. Unions do what their members want them to do.
    - kilotaras 6y ago
      Or it can do nothing of the sort, instead negotiating things like non-competes, options exercise window, etc. See screen writers or actors unions for examples.
    - zaarn 6y ago
      Then your union is bad and you should work to improve it. No wonder if US unions always end up so bad if apparently nobody is willing to fix things and let pancilpushers do it.
      - adriancr 6y ago
        I'm in europe, unions are mandatory everywhere, some are good, some are not, average just do what the company wants them to, usually the 2-3% raise every year. Unions don't really work for software, high demand, low supply of people, here you can negotiate better then without one, and if you are not happy, next job.
        zaarn 6y ago
        They aren't mandatory everywhere, atleast in germany. You can join the union or not. If you don't join you can still take advantage of the union negotiated rates or not if you wish. If you think you can negotiate better than the union you're still free to do so.
    - ideals 6y ago
      Do you see yourself as becoming a top earner in your field? Do you know if you earn more than your colleagues? If so, is this because of your negotiating skills?
      - adriancr 6y ago
        I know I am compensated fairly and that puts me as top earner for my current country. It is due to demand and offer for my technical skills... I switch or ask for a raise if I get a better offer, anyone can/should do that. It's not due to unions. Here unions are mandatory and result is what I said earlier, that plus making it hard to fire incompetent people.
- dagurp 6y ago
  If there's any sort of competition for employees then you have to be ready to offer more than the guideline to keep/attract the best people.
- PierceJoy 6y ago
  The unions you are referring to are almost universally for blue collar workers. Most professional athletes are members of unions. Most highly paid actors are members of a union. Neither of those groups have decreased individual leverage. It's unlikely that a union for highly paid white collar workers would closely resemble a union for blue collar workers.
  - pc86 6y ago
    Programmers are much closer to electricians than they are professional football players, though. Athletes and actors have star power, and considerable individual leverage. Tom Cruise is definitely in the Screen Actor's Guild but when's the last time SAG did anything for him? They're there to make sure the lowest end gets their $2k/week. I get your point and it's a good one, I just think when we're talking about literally 100-200 people negotiating 8 and 9-figure yearly contracts it's an outlier (to say the least).
  - umanwizard 6y ago
    > Neither of those groups have decreased individual leverage. Huh? Sure they do. The MLB negotiated agreement is terrible for top performers, who are paid close to the league minimum salary for the first three years of their career, and an arbitration-determined salary for the next two. As soon as the union-negotiated common salary time runs out, top players’ pay jumps several times.
    - PierceJoy 6y ago
      What were equivalent players paid before the unions existed? Sports unions are responsible for the massive increase in pay over the years. Those top performers would have been making much less in the absence of a union, both at the start and in the peak of their careers. I personally don't view that as decreased individual leverage. > As soon as the union-negotiated common salary time runs out, top players’ pay jumps several times. That 'several times' level only exists because of the unions.
- celticninja 6y ago
  That's never been my experience with unions and wages. My salary has been based in what I negotiated but the union ensures that each year I get a raise that is at least in line with inflation so that I am not, in really terms, making less money each year. They also collectively bargain on my behalf for annual leave and provide the same function for me that HR provide for my employer.
pc86 6y ago
I would love (seriously) to hear an example of a union that negotiates pay for its members but individuals successfully get additional raises or bonuses on top of that (not just for doing additional work). Teachers, pilots, public sector employees, all have pay contractually set. If you're a high school teacher and you ask your Principal or Vice Principal for a raise out of band you'll get laughed out of the room.
- dagurp 6y ago
  Most teachers work in public schools so even if the principal could give them a raise they wouldn't be able to but in private schools they absolutely could. Pilots are an interesting example because AFIK they negotiated terribly, i.e. they have all sorts of benefits and high salaries for the high-tenured pilots but new pilots are almost working for free. Student pilots have been told for years that there's an upcoming shortage of pilots but right now you're lucky to get a job anywhere in the world. If you're looking for examples then look at europe. In my country everyone has the right to negotiate their salary once a year even though most people are part of a union. Where I worked I would always be able to get a couple of % added to my salary.
- UncleMeat 6y ago
  SAG. The NFL Players Union. Just two examples.
  - solidasparagus 6y ago
    But the NFLPA still hurts top performers. The joint negotiating in the NFL absolutely leads to the highest paid players being paid less than they would without a union. The revenue split, the franchise tag, the minimum salary, the rookie pay scale (arguable), and the veteran benefits all lead to less of the pie being available to the top tier players and less negotiating power. The salary escrow provision is a great example of an out-of-date rule that exists due to CBA negotiations and 100% hurts the top earners (while also providing zero actual benefits - it just existed because it has been there for decades and it's an effort to change anything when doing collective bargaining). Not that I think any of this is bad since the NFL is brutal to its lowest earners, but it absolutely hurts the highest earners.

by dagurp 6y ago

kerosene 6y ago

What typically happens with unions is the agreement will likely contain a salary guideline adhered to most of the time, which diminishes individual leverage.

zaarn 6y ago
Your overall leverage is increased through the union so you are more likely to get a fair compensation than before.
- adriancr 6y ago
  not if the union negotiates upper limits on compensation. Or it negotiates yearly raise brackets. You can negotiate better individually if you are good and there arent union enforced guidelines, if you're not, the union deal would work out better.
  - PierceJoy 6y ago
    Professional athlete unions are a strong counter example. Unions do what their members want them to do.
  - kilotaras 6y ago
    Or it can do nothing of the sort, instead negotiating things like non-competes, options exercise window, etc. See screen writers or actors unions for examples.
  - zaarn 6y ago
    Then your union is bad and you should work to improve it. No wonder if US unions always end up so bad if apparently nobody is willing to fix things and let pancilpushers do it.
    - adriancr 6y ago
      I'm in europe, unions are mandatory everywhere, some are good, some are not, average just do what the company wants them to, usually the 2-3% raise every year. Unions don't really work for software, high demand, low supply of people, here you can negotiate better then without one, and if you are not happy, next job.
      - zaarn 6y ago
        They aren't mandatory everywhere, atleast in germany. You can join the union or not. If you don't join you can still take advantage of the union negotiated rates or not if you wish. If you think you can negotiate better than the union you're still free to do so.
  - ideals 6y ago
    Do you see yourself as becoming a top earner in your field? Do you know if you earn more than your colleagues? If so, is this because of your negotiating skills?
    - adriancr 6y ago
      I know I am compensated fairly and that puts me as top earner for my current country. It is due to demand and offer for my technical skills... I switch or ask for a raise if I get a better offer, anyone can/should do that. It's not due to unions. Here unions are mandatory and result is what I said earlier, that plus making it hard to fire incompetent people.
dagurp 6y ago
If there's any sort of competition for employees then you have to be ready to offer more than the guideline to keep/attract the best people.
PierceJoy 6y ago
The unions you are referring to are almost universally for blue collar workers. Most professional athletes are members of unions. Most highly paid actors are members of a union. Neither of those groups have decreased individual leverage. It's unlikely that a union for highly paid white collar workers would closely resemble a union for blue collar workers.
- pc86 6y ago
  Programmers are much closer to electricians than they are professional football players, though. Athletes and actors have star power, and considerable individual leverage. Tom Cruise is definitely in the Screen Actor's Guild but when's the last time SAG did anything for him? They're there to make sure the lowest end gets their $2k/week. I get your point and it's a good one, I just think when we're talking about literally 100-200 people negotiating 8 and 9-figure yearly contracts it's an outlier (to say the least).
- umanwizard 6y ago
  > Neither of those groups have decreased individual leverage. Huh? Sure they do. The MLB negotiated agreement is terrible for top performers, who are paid close to the league minimum salary for the first three years of their career, and an arbitration-determined salary for the next two. As soon as the union-negotiated common salary time runs out, top players’ pay jumps several times.
  - PierceJoy 6y ago
    What were equivalent players paid before the unions existed? Sports unions are responsible for the massive increase in pay over the years. Those top performers would have been making much less in the absence of a union, both at the start and in the peak of their careers. I personally don't view that as decreased individual leverage. > As soon as the union-negotiated common salary time runs out, top players’ pay jumps several times. That 'several times' level only exists because of the unions.
celticninja 6y ago
That's never been my experience with unions and wages. My salary has been based in what I negotiated but the union ensures that each year I get a raise that is at least in line with inflation so that I am not, in really terms, making less money each year. They also collectively bargain on my behalf for annual leave and provide the same function for me that HR provide for my employer.

pc86 6y ago

I would love (seriously) to hear an example of a union that negotiates pay for its members but individuals successfully get additional raises or bonuses on top of that (not just for doing additional work). Teachers, pilots, public sector employees, all have pay contractually set. If you're a high school teacher and you ask your Principal or Vice Principal for a raise out of band you'll get laughed out of the room.

dagurp 6y ago
Most teachers work in public schools so even if the principal could give them a raise they wouldn't be able to but in private schools they absolutely could. Pilots are an interesting example because AFIK they negotiated terribly, i.e. they have all sorts of benefits and high salaries for the high-tenured pilots but new pilots are almost working for free. Student pilots have been told for years that there's an upcoming shortage of pilots but right now you're lucky to get a job anywhere in the world. If you're looking for examples then look at europe. In my country everyone has the right to negotiate their salary once a year even though most people are part of a union. Where I worked I would always be able to get a couple of % added to my salary.
UncleMeat 6y ago
SAG. The NFL Players Union. Just two examples.
- solidasparagus 6y ago
  But the NFLPA still hurts top performers. The joint negotiating in the NFL absolutely leads to the highest paid players being paid less than they would without a union. The revenue split, the franchise tag, the minimum salary, the rookie pay scale (arguable), and the veteran benefits all lead to less of the pie being available to the top tier players and less negotiating power. The salary escrow provision is a great example of an out-of-date rule that exists due to CBA negotiations and 100% hurts the top earners (while also providing zero actual benefits - it just existed because it has been there for decades and it's an effort to change anything when doing collective bargaining). Not that I think any of this is bad since the NFL is brutal to its lowest earners, but it absolutely hurts the highest earners.