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For all the ire on this site about the likes of Google, Apple, etc. screwing over the small company with their 30% app store fee, why isn't there even more outr

For all the ire on this site about the likes of Google, Apple, etc. screwing over the small company with their 30% app store fee, why isn't there even more outrage over the founders and startups who screw over their even more deserving-of-help employees? You know, the employees who get subjected to unregulated dilution, tyrannical bosses, unreasonable hours and unclear compensation for trading off the prime years of their life? The ones who sign papers that look like an official company that has rules and structures, only to find that it's really "whatever the CEO wants to do"? You would think people would be up in arms about that.

Semaphor 6y ago
Probably because people already tell you not to work at startups unless it is for ideological reasons.
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  Part of the problem is the lack of good well paying employment options for engineers in small or medium sized companies and companies that are not FAANG. Especially outside of SV. Many of us at FAANG companies would love to leave, but it's getting increasingly hard to find good employers doing interesting work who a) aren't FAANG companies and b) aren't looking to be acquired by a FAANG company. In the Bay Area there are definitely more options, but outside of there sometimes you have to go to a startup just to find interesting work and a smaller, focused, team.
notimetorelax 6y ago
I think it’s sufficiently esoteric so that there’s not enough people to be up in arms.
adrianN 6y ago
Because Startups don't have a virtual monopoly on jobs the issue is much less pressing than with app stores. Of course that doesn't mean that programmers shouldn't form a union.
- Waterfall 6y ago
  Unions only seem to benefit the union leaders. Union membership have long dropped precipitously for decades for over 50 years at least. Programmer are in no danger of being stuck like McDonald's workers. They're free to work elsewhere and the NDA are as good as toilet paper.
  - adrianN 6y ago
    Unions are democratic entities. They do what their members want them to do.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      At best, they do what the majority of their members want. Which may be completely at odds with your interests. For example a union of mainly older members voting for pay-by-seniority and damaging younger people’s pay. Democracy in a union can become a tyranny of the majority. That’s one reason many people don’t want unions.
      - celticninja 6y ago
        Isn't that democracy everywhere though? And it's still better than any of the alternatives by a significant margin.
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        > Isn't that democracy everywhere though? And it's still better than any of the alternatives by a significant margin. Yes it is. Which is fine for something like a country where I don't have any hope of negotiating with the government individually, and where I don't have any choice in which country I'm part of. But I'm not sure it's what I want for my job, where I can already negotiate directly with my employer, and where I can leave for other options if I don't like the offer. I'm trading one master that I need to persuade and negotiate with (employer) for two (employer and union leaders and their majority block). That sounds worse not better to me. A union is great if you're part of the majority. If you're part of a minority in some regard... then yikes good luck.
luckylion 6y ago
One is a lottery: invest time in this startup, accept a lower compensation, but if it works out, you'll never have to work another day in your life after 5 years. The other isn't a lottery.
- khazhoux 6y ago
  Employee equity is so tiny, only a handful of companies have been able to retire rank-and-file employees, even after big exits. Founders, on the other hand, do quite well in exits usually.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    On the big exits, the early employees are often doing very well, but obviously not those that were employee 1000 or joined a week before the announcement. Founders do better, but that's expected, they also carry much higher risk. And really, playing the lottery to win a million is still playing the lottery, even if others who spend even more on the lottery are trying to win a billion. Don't want to lose money on the lottery? Don't play it. I don't, and I never get a bad feeling thinking of what else I could've spent that money on.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
0xfaded 6y ago
90% of the time you hear of start-up employees getting "screwed", it's because the investors and founders are trying to recover their investments through an acquihire or IP sell off. Cliffs on investments reduce the risk premium and lower the cost of money which is used to pay for the employees salaries. Founders (excluding previous successes) most likely draw a "survival" salary for many years. It's also a very demanding job, so good luck optimizing expenses at home. Employees are paid livable salaries plus options on common stock, which in a true runaway scenario will be worth something. It's unfortunate that employees lose out on their lottery tickets, but that's really what option grants are. If you want more negotiating power, position yourself as a technical cofounder and accept the survival salary.
- supernova87a 6y ago
  I see, so start driving the wagon instead of riding it, and be the one doing the screwing?
  - LoSboccacc 6y ago
    it's the investors that drive the wagon, only the tiniest minority of founders in the software space are truly independent.
- colordrops 6y ago
  So in summary you are saying it makes no sense to be an employee at a startup. There's no upside except for "lottery winners".
  - mav3rick 6y ago
    This is so obvious to anyone who spent 2 minutes thinking about working at a startup.
  - MAGZine 6y ago
    Founding engineers may take 1%. Go plug the numbers in for yourself on tldroptions.io and see what the return looks like. That said, on the most rocketcorny of rocketcorns the growth curve continues and being an employee in series A or B can be a nice payday. But for the vast, vast majority of companies (VAST!), your share will be worth little, and more often than not, less than what you will make just going to work at a FAANG. Startups have other innumerable benefits, but in terms of compensation, those benefits are (unfortunately) just that.
spurned_dev 6y ago
Oh gonna need a throwaway for this one. I had an exit interview where the founder told me their endgame was to destroy the value of the company to buyback the equity they sold to investors. I've never been more insulted in my life.
- eric-hu 6y ago
  This seems like it would be very valuable information to the investors.
  - Thorrez 6y ago
    It sounds like it might be illegal, maybe it could be reported to the FTC.
    - fluffy87 6y ago
      Definitely illegal. This is fraud.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems a lot more SEC than FTC.
      - fsckboy 6y ago
        it's probably the state AG's office
- arethuza 6y ago
  What I never understand about these kinds of things is that it is bad enough to plan to do that, but why go around telling people what you plan to do?
  - andy_ppp 6y ago
    Human nature to talk about things that play on your mind? Could also be to show off how clever you are. But yes it’s slightly insane!
wutbrodo 6y ago
Isn't there? I feel like it's an almost-universal consensus here that startup employees get heavily exploited, whenever the topic comes up.
mmsimanga 6y ago
No one ever got fired for going with IBM/Oracle/MS/Amazon. I suspect there is an equal and opposite statement to be made for the ire displayed against the same companies. If I were to make a stab at such a statement it would be, "no one ever paid attention to the ire expressed against small company".
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Semaphor 6y ago

Probably because people already tell you not to work at startups unless it is for ideological reasons.

cmrdporcupine 6y ago
Part of the problem is the lack of good well paying employment options for engineers in small or medium sized companies and companies that are not FAANG. Especially outside of SV. Many of us at FAANG companies would love to leave, but it's getting increasingly hard to find good employers doing interesting work who a) aren't FAANG companies and b) aren't looking to be acquired by a FAANG company. In the Bay Area there are definitely more options, but outside of there sometimes you have to go to a startup just to find interesting work and a smaller, focused, team.

notimetorelax 6y ago

I think it’s sufficiently esoteric so that there’s not enough people to be up in arms.

adrianN 6y ago

Because Startups don't have a virtual monopoly on jobs the issue is much less pressing than with app stores. Of course that doesn't mean that programmers shouldn't form a union.

Waterfall 6y ago
Unions only seem to benefit the union leaders. Union membership have long dropped precipitously for decades for over 50 years at least. Programmer are in no danger of being stuck like McDonald's workers. They're free to work elsewhere and the NDA are as good as toilet paper.
- adrianN 6y ago
  Unions are democratic entities. They do what their members want them to do.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    At best, they do what the majority of their members want. Which may be completely at odds with your interests. For example a union of mainly older members voting for pay-by-seniority and damaging younger people’s pay. Democracy in a union can become a tyranny of the majority. That’s one reason many people don’t want unions.
    - celticninja 6y ago
      Isn't that democracy everywhere though? And it's still better than any of the alternatives by a significant margin.
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        > Isn't that democracy everywhere though? And it's still better than any of the alternatives by a significant margin. Yes it is. Which is fine for something like a country where I don't have any hope of negotiating with the government individually, and where I don't have any choice in which country I'm part of. But I'm not sure it's what I want for my job, where I can already negotiate directly with my employer, and where I can leave for other options if I don't like the offer. I'm trading one master that I need to persuade and negotiate with (employer) for two (employer and union leaders and their majority block). That sounds worse not better to me. A union is great if you're part of the majority. If you're part of a minority in some regard... then yikes good luck.

luckylion 6y ago

One is a lottery: invest time in this startup, accept a lower compensation, but if it works out, you'll never have to work another day in your life after 5 years. The other isn't a lottery.

khazhoux 6y ago
Employee equity is so tiny, only a handful of companies have been able to retire rank-and-file employees, even after big exits. Founders, on the other hand, do quite well in exits usually.
- luckylion 6y ago
  On the big exits, the early employees are often doing very well, but obviously not those that were employee 1000 or joined a week before the announcement. Founders do better, but that's expected, they also carry much higher risk. And really, playing the lottery to win a million is still playing the lottery, even if others who spend even more on the lottery are trying to win a billion. Don't want to lose money on the lottery? Don't play it. I don't, and I never get a bad feeling thinking of what else I could've spent that money on.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

0xfaded 6y ago

90% of the time you hear of start-up employees getting "screwed", it's because the investors and founders are trying to recover their investments through an acquihire or IP sell off. Cliffs on investments reduce the risk premium and lower the cost of money which is used to pay for the employees salaries. Founders (excluding previous successes) most likely draw a "survival" salary for many years. It's also a very demanding job, so good luck optimizing expenses at home. Employees are paid livable salaries plus options on common stock, which in a true runaway scenario will be worth something. It's unfortunate that employees lose out on their lottery tickets, but that's really what option grants are. If you want more negotiating power, position yourself as a technical cofounder and accept the survival salary.

supernova87a 6y ago
I see, so start driving the wagon instead of riding it, and be the one doing the screwing?
- LoSboccacc 6y ago
  it's the investors that drive the wagon, only the tiniest minority of founders in the software space are truly independent.
colordrops 6y ago
So in summary you are saying it makes no sense to be an employee at a startup. There's no upside except for "lottery winners".
- mav3rick 6y ago
  This is so obvious to anyone who spent 2 minutes thinking about working at a startup.
- MAGZine 6y ago
  Founding engineers may take 1%. Go plug the numbers in for yourself on tldroptions.io and see what the return looks like. That said, on the most rocketcorny of rocketcorns the growth curve continues and being an employee in series A or B can be a nice payday. But for the vast, vast majority of companies (VAST!), your share will be worth little, and more often than not, less than what you will make just going to work at a FAANG. Startups have other innumerable benefits, but in terms of compensation, those benefits are (unfortunately) just that.

spurned_dev 6y ago

Oh gonna need a throwaway for this one. I had an exit interview where the founder told me their endgame was to destroy the value of the company to buyback the equity they sold to investors. I've never been more insulted in my life.

eric-hu 6y ago
This seems like it would be very valuable information to the investors.
- Thorrez 6y ago
  It sounds like it might be illegal, maybe it could be reported to the FTC.
  - fluffy87 6y ago
    Definitely illegal. This is fraud.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems a lot more SEC than FTC.
    - fsckboy 6y ago
      it's probably the state AG's office
arethuza 6y ago
What I never understand about these kinds of things is that it is bad enough to plan to do that, but why go around telling people what you plan to do?
- andy_ppp 6y ago
  Human nature to talk about things that play on your mind? Could also be to show off how clever you are. But yes it’s slightly insane!

wutbrodo 6y ago

Isn't there? I feel like it's an almost-universal consensus here that startup employees get heavily exploited, whenever the topic comes up.

mmsimanga 6y ago

No one ever got fired for going with IBM/Oracle/MS/Amazon. I suspect there is an equal and opposite statement to be made for the ire displayed against the same companies. If I were to make a stab at such a statement it would be, "no one ever paid attention to the ire expressed against small company".

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]