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How would you store 500TB of stuff you don't need everyday?
My company has vast amounts (>500TB) of media (mostly pictures) that needs to be stored as cheaply as possible. Currently, we're using spinning hard drives in a colo as well as S3 for backup, but that's expensive. Can we trade speed for cheap? In the past the cheapest thing around was tape or possibly CDROM/WORM drives however with the dropping prices of hard drives I'm not sure those solutions make sense anymore.
How would you store 500TB and growing, of stuff you don't need everyday?
- sidmitra 16y agoJust curious, did you do a cost analysis with Amazon S3, i'm guessing that amount of media might cost a lot. I haven't run the numbers myself. EDIT: At $0.095/GB, it would cost you over $48K per month!! I guess i didn't internalize how expensive S3 was.
- xd 16y agoHave you looked into tape libraries i.e. The HP StorageWorks MSL4048. Obviously you would be looking at the uncompressed figure (144TB per unit)assuming your pictures are already compressed.
- xd 16y agoAlso, hard drives are cheap, but you would need servers to manage around 200 of them and that will cost a lot to run, not to mention maintain. Tape, in my eyes, is still the best way to archive data.
- khafra 16y agoAt $5k per unit (first froogle result) that's only $35k for a petabyte; less than 1/3 the price of assembling your own backblaze-type storage. Not bad.
- xd 16y agoI wish it was that cheap .. throw in the cost of the tapes and the price doubles.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- RyanGWU82 16y agoI think you've got the math backwards -- the native capacity is 38.4 TB per unit. If your data is compressable, you can store roughly 2X the amount of data in the same physical space, which is how they come up with the 76.8 TB figure.
- wladimir 16y agoAFAIK, currently, hard drives are by far the cheapest solution per GB. Does it need to be online at all times? If not, why not use offline drives and store them somewhere?
- xd 16y agoI've dealt with hundreds of hard drives over the years. Using them as offline storage is very risky as they do and will fail to spin up after being sat for long periods of time.
- wladimir 16y agoYou want to take some redundancy into account. Even with that, it's still cheap. Tapes degrade and break down as well. Everything needs maintenance. If you want really long term storage, there is no other option but to copy the data to new mediums once in a while.
- xd 16y agoTrue but, in the 13+ years I've been in the industry I've not once seen or heard of a failed tape ..
- joss82 16y agoWell, I've worked for 1 year at HP phone support, especially on tapes. I assure you that tapes fail all the time. Their mechanical nature and the strain on their delicate components make them susceptible to failure. EDIT: Unless you're talking about high end like Ultrium. In that case, it's solid. But then much slower, more expensive than a same size hard drive.
- xd 16y agoMost of my experience has been with Ultrium TBH. But you can pick up Ultrium 1.5TB tapes for less than the cost of a equivalent sized hard drive, here in the UK at least.
- ZogStriP 16y agoHave you tried http://www.backblaze.com/ http://www.backblaze.com/ ?
- wakes 16y agoEncode in a laser and bounce off the moon.
- cmsj 16y agoThe print media company I used to work for, which had an almost bottomless collection of massive image files, used a large tape robot and had its office across the street from an Iron Mountain storage depot. The Mac guys would work with small images then the workflow tools (TWIST afair) would issue requests for the huge versions, which would produce a daily request to Iron Mountain to bring us the right tapes. The next day we'd feed those tapes into the robot and the full resolution jobs would be completed, rendered, uploaded to appropriate FTP servers and the tapes would be returned to storage in the next daily Iron Mountain pickup. Poor latency, but massive throughput and storage :)
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- chrismiller 16y agoI know you said you are currently using colocated servers but have you had a look at http://blog.backblaze.com/2009/09/01/petabytes-on-a-budget-how-to-build-cheap-cloud-storage/ http://blog.backblaze.com/2009/09/01/petabytes-on-a-budget-h... ? A few of these replicating between each other might be cheaper than the less dense server + S3 combo you have at the moment. [edit] The cost of the Backblaze units is ~$117 per TB so it would cost ~$59,000 to store 500TB or $118,000 for 2 redundant copies. $118,000 would be equal to only a few months of hosting 500TB on S3.
- pstack 16y agoLooks like we were doing the math at the same time (see my post elsewhere, here). You'd be looking at 15 of these servers, but then I have no idea how much the expense of maintaining them would be. That's also the cost of storing their current data plus redundancy. It may be the cheap solution, today, but I wonder if it would scale on the order of a seriously high end tape system (I linked one in this thread that potentially stores 91 archived petabytes). I couldn't find pricing information and since this isn't something I ever deal with, I don't know what the industry standard would be. I would not be surprised if the cost of setting up a very high capacity tape system would come out as the better deal in the long run. Perhaps the BackBlaze solution would be cheaper with half to a full petabyte, but over the long term, the high capacity tape systems might beat the multi-petabyte pants off it. Of course, that kind of depends on how quickly spinning drives expand in size and drop in price, which could feasibly account for the difference in cost between the two options over time. The important variable there is in whether their data accumulation outpaces the drop in prices on spinning drives. No matter what, cloud hosted solutions seems pretty much off the charts. Even if the storage was reasonable, I'm guessing they have to transfer several terabytes a month to the backup which would be pretty painful on a lot of networks.
- chrismiller 16y agoSomething I just realised (not sure if you took this into account in your calculations) is that the article we linked was published in 2009. In all of their calculations they list 1.5tb Sata HDDs as costing $129. Those same disks can now be purchased for between $50 and $60. So at 45 disks in each of the servers that would be a saving of $3105 per server or ~$46,000 in total savings.
- mathnode 16y agoMassive Array of Idle Disks. Speak to your favourite SGI or IBM sales rep!
- pstack 16y agoThis isn't my area of expertise, but when you factor in redundancy, you're looking at a petabyte of data just for what you have now. You'll need it to failover plus have at least one full backup at a separate location. Commodity hardware almost seems prohibitively expensive. You'll have the hardware, 600+ 2tb drives just to start, space, electricity, cooling, maintenance (with that many drives, you'll probably be replacing them often). If you went with the solution that BackBlaze rolled for themselves, you'd be looking at 15 of their servers (for redundancy), without even adding any more data in the future. Using the solution they came up with, that would run almost $120,000. I have no idea what the monthly maintenance expenses would be. http://blog.backblaze.com/2009/09/01/petabytes-on-a-budget-how-to-build-cheap-cloud-storage/ http://blog.backblaze.com/2009/09/01/petabytes-on-a-budget-h... You are undertaking a nearly herculean feat, here. I don't think any of the professional data storage solutions out there will be any cheaper, either. In fact, a petabyte of storage (especially if you need doubles of all hardware to place at another location) would probably run nearer a million bucks or more. It might even be worth, as someone else linked, considering BackBlaze themselves. At least find out what they could do for you. They offer a business plan at something like $50/computer for unlimited storage. Obviously they're not going to store 0.5-1.0 petabytes of data for that price, but on the scale that you need, you might be able to negotiate something that surpasses what you could accomplish at any reasonable price -- and you have the added benefit of any catastrophe being their problem; not yours. If you truly only rarely need to access your data and speed of that access is trivial to you, then as others mentioned, Tape could be completely feasible. I have no idea how much money it would cost, but you're talking a TON of cartridges and some sort of rotational system. If you expect the amount of data you need to continue growing at a rapid rate, you might even end up considering something like Spectra Logic offers. I have absolutely no clue how much their solutions are, but they can store up to 91 petabytes of data which I imagine would do you quite well for a long time to come: http://www.spectralogic.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=products.displayContent&catID=1990&src=bab http://www.spectralogic.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=products.di...
- wazoox 16y agoSpectraLogic tape libraries are insanely great. IMO they're the best available. Unfortunately they're quite expensive, sensibly more than Overland equivalent. An Overland Neo 8000e should cost about 60000 bucks, to which you must add 350 60$ LTO-5 tapes. However the power usage cost will be negligible, while 500 TB of drives will burn more than its price in power and AC every year.
- kia 16y agoI think in the long run for such amounts of storage Tape Libraries would be the cheapest solution (in terms of cost per GB and management) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape_library http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape_library
- JoachimSchipper 16y agoThis is probably too cheap, but Blu-Ray media is about $2/25GB, or $80/TB (and a new standard is coming). You'll want a lot of redundancy, so "just" $40k in media won't get you there, but it is less than the $120k for hard disk storage quoted by pstack (Blu-Ray discs don't even need power and cooling; on the other hand, Backblaze Pods don't need interns to keep feeding them blank media). You should probably do some RAID-like error correction to keep the number of extra copies you need reasonable. (E.g. two copies of every disc, every fifth disc is just the XOR of the previous four; that'd give you two backups for every disk at a total cost of $90k.)
- aidenn0 16y agoBlu-ray media is around $1 per disc if you buy 25 or 50 packs.
- bigiain 16y agoHow long to you need to store it all for? For the ~$50k per month you're spending on S3, it doesn't take too long to justify your own big robot tape library. I'd be keeping my eyes open for somebody decommissioning one (if you're in Sydney, Australia, I've heard rumors about a certain bank who acquired another bank who're building a new data center to combine the two banks - I suspect there'll be a lot of decommissioned gear on the 2nd hand market shortly)
- Andys 16y agoI'd use off the shelf consumer hardware. High density Supermicro chassis with SAS uplinks back to a single server. 2+TB consumer low-power disks. Software raid (eg. ZFS) to manage it all. And finally, host it a site office or low-grade colocation facility.
- jodrellblank 16y agoHow big is your company? If you have hundreds of employees with desktop computers, you could put extra Tb disks in them and work out a redundant distributed filesystem. Still going to cost a lot for disks and a lot of do-it-yourself setup, but piggy backs on existing network and power infrastructure, no need for expensive datacenter kit or new machines/tape drives/libraries/etc. and you could build into your existing desktop maintenance and renewal procedures. Do you want a hacky build-it-yourself solution?
- davecampbell 16y agointeresting idea - i wonder if a hadoop cluster with nodes on virtual machines installed on employee desktops make sense? seems like a lot of work to install extra drives on all machines but deploying the virtual machines as nodes might be doable. the distributed drives could have the VM installed right on it. i like the idea.
- thwarted 16y agoI actually worked on a system to do this back in the late 90s code-named "Dark Iron". Our boss, who conceived of it, thought he was some kind of old school mainframe ("Big Iron") guy who talked a lot about using the unused capacity on all the desktops at companies at night (the "Dark" part, like "dark fiber"). I wrote the Linux kernel block device module and the other guy on the project wrote the part that ran on all the users desktops, mainly just a key-value store indexed by block number (the users liked to kill the process, which made it terribly unreliable). Back then, we used Linux purely for development, under the theory that once we "proved" it worked with the rinkydink Linux open source operating system, the company could then justify the purchase of the HP-UX and AIX kernel development kits and we'd port it to machines that people "actually" use. We all know how that last part turned out. But really, if you want to do something exactly like this (rather than the VMs that davecampbell suggests) these days (that is, since about 2003), you'd be best off using md software raid over Network Block Device. I believe there are Network Block Device storage ends (is that the client or the server?) for platforms other than Linux. Even a simplistic AOE service would do.
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- kylecordes 16y agoAs you have already discovered, storing that data on S3 is rather expensive. S3 is priced in a way that makes sense for hot, important, accessible data; not for idle permanent archives. I attacked a problem like this a few years ago, and found that the best solution at the time was to build servers with lots of big cheap hard drives and as little else as possible; similar to the BackBlaze idea but less impressive. I wrote it up here: http://kylecordes.com/2008/big-raid http://kylecordes.com/2008/big-raid ...but since hardware changes so fast, all of the details there are probably obsolete. Extra servers with backup copies of data can be much more economically deployed in an office closet instead of a colo. There will be more downtime (power and bandwidth reliability), but if it's an idle backup, that won't matter. Servers full of hard drives (20 TB worth or whatever) for long-term, un-accessed archives can be turned off (no power or heat), but opinions vary as to whether the on/off cycles for occasional access will reduce the total service life.
- wazoox 16y agoThis is definitely right in my area of expertise :) It largely depends upon how frequently you use the data and what is your preferred access time. It's possible to build RAID arrays with 2 TB drives (the sweet post right now in price/capacity), or 1 TB 2.5" drives. With a RAID controller that knows how to spin down idle arrays, it can be pretty cheap, let's see : -using 2 TB 3.5" drives in 24 disks arrays, you need 1 24 disks supermicro-based server (21 usable disks) + 3 45 drives supermicro JBODs gives you 240 TB of usable capacity. Two similar systems will give you 480 TB in 8*4 =32U of rack. The setup will draw about 8KW of power when running and weigh about 300 Kg. If you'd rather go with 2.5" drives, 1 24 slots supermicro server chassis + 3 88 slots supermicro JBODs will give you 260 TB of usable capacity. Two systems will give you 520 TB in 28U, draw about 3.5KW and weigh 200 Kg. So I'd definitely go for the 2.5" version. Furthermore, the 2.5" drives stand much better being put to rest quite often. Please note that this volume is also largely in the realm of tape archive. Current tape libraries are fast, and LTO-5 are 1.5TB uncompressed. It can definitely be cheaper in the long run. Caveat lector! this is a quick and dirty, back of the napkin calculation. I'm on my way to install a 96 TB machine at some customer's premises, I've just quickly thrown the numbers together before leaving.
- illumin8 16y agoI would caution against this. If you need the data to truly be protected, don't build it yourself. Here are some questions and issues that can come up: * Using desktop drives, when 24 are mounted in a single chassis, the vibration from those drives will cause a higher rate of failure. Desktop drives were not designed for this purpose and are not made to handle the vibration and heat created by 23 other drives in the same chassis. * When a single drive in your 24 drive chassis fails, how do you know which one it is? On an enterprise storage array, you have the ability to flash an LED so you know which drive to replace, or you have a direct mapping (shelf 2, bay 16) in the error message. If you built it yourself, how do you know which physical drive is /dev/sdzg? * Purchasing a large number of drives from the same batch means they are very likely to start failing around the same date. Can you handle a double disk failure without losing data? How about a triple disk failure? Do you have hot spares capability? * Are you scrubbing your data regularly to make sure those blocks on disk aren't getting silently corrupted over time? If you never read your data or scrub your entire disk regularly, the only time you'll find out if you've lost data is during a RAID rebuild, when you'll get read errors and have complete data loss (unable to read parity from another drive, double disk failure, complete loss of RAID). * Are you able to use RAID 6 or additional parity disk technology to protect against double disk failures? What if I want 3 parity disks to prevent against a triple disk failure? All of these considerations are things that will come up when you're designing a storage system. These are things that enterprise storage vendors spend months with engineers designing. Failure modes should be considered. In my experience with hand built PC server storage arrays, the time you are most likely to lose data is when you have a disk failure, and are rebuilding parity from another disk. If you have many disks from the same batch, a rebuild can stress the disks more than normal, and cause a second disk to fail. This is why RAID 6 is becoming more and more popular. I would caution you to consider that cheap hand built storage usually ends up expensive in the long run, especially when you lose data that you thought was protected.
- EwanToo 16y agoThe question surely isn't "As cheaply as possible", after all, you could just delete it - that'd be cheap. Tape is still the cheapest, reliable option, and your main options are Quantum, IBM, and Oracle (Sun). The Quantum Scalar i500 can store up to 600TB of data, and is relatively cheap, or you could buy 4 or 5 smaller models and use tape management software to track where the data is.
- patrickgzill 16y agoI recommend that whatever solution you go with, you ensure that you have ECC at the filesystem level to make sure that bit rot doesn't end up costing you data. For instance, with ZFS, you can issue a "scrub" command which will trundle through the whole filesystem and double-check the ECC codes of everything stored on it, correcting single-bit errors it finds along the way. Running scrub every month or 2 months would ensure data is not lost.
- IChrisI 16y agoHow much of that is duplicates? How much is lower quality versions of other images, which could be recalculated if necessary? How much is higher quality than needed, or stored in the wrong way (PNG vs JPEG for jpeg-y pictures)? 500TB is a lot, and perhaps you can reduce that number.
- ChuckN 16y agoCan you be much more detailed about: 1. Longevity of the data - when can it be deleted? 2. Damage resulting from losing a random 1TB 3. How often do you need access to the most commonly used TB, the 50th percentile TB and the least used TB 4. Is there a significant amount of duplicate data? People have already left 40 comments and you haven't replied.
- swalberg 16y agoThere's a company called Cleversafe.(com|org) that makes a product that uses dispersed storage. So in one scenario, you split a block of data up into 8 chunks and store them on separate servers. Only 5 of those servers are needed to reconstruct the data. It has better reliability than RAID and needs fewer disks. You can either access the data over http as files, or it can be a block store accessible with iSCSI. They have a commercial product (a colleague of mine is a reseller, I can introduce you if you want), and also an open source version if you want to build the servers yourself.
- martin1b 16y agoYou need a chinese magical hard drive (http://blog.jitbit.com/2011/04/chinese-magic-drive.html http://blog.jitbit.com/2011/04/chinese-magic-drive.html)
- Jetlag 16y agoColor seperate the pictures and project them onto black and white negative film. Develop the film, put it in a vault. This might be overkill.
- portman 16y agoHow much is it growing by per day? That's more important than the total volume of data. The strategies for these situations are very different: - 500TB growing by 1GB per day - 500TB growing by 1TB per day In the first case, it's mostly about preservation, and optical media is a very real possibility. In the second case, unless you have a source of cheap labor near your data center, optical media isn't probably an option.
- maukdaddy 16y agoSince everyone has chimed in with a tech solution, let me offer a business solution: Have you determined that you actually need this 500TB of media? If you're not using the data every day, do you really need it? A lot of businesses hoard data without ever analyzing why or if they should keep it. Keeping data for records retention laws is one thing, but keeping data just because you have it is a poor business decision. After running a thorough analysis you might determine that you only need to keep 100TB or so.
- Corrado 16y agoWe definitely have orphaned data in the mix and are working to purge it. However, most of the data has to be kept in case its needed in the future (however unlikely that may be).
- raypace 16y agoTake it from someone who's been around the block, call EMC or NetApp. They are the best of breed and your data will be safe. If you choose a home grown solution, YOU will be responsible for the quirks of the hardware, making it work with your OS and network and every failure.
- chrisbolt 16y agoAnd how much would that cost you?
- jacobwhatwhat 16y agoYou could use cheaper storage like SuperMicro systems that are really dense and then run Gluster across them. Gluster will handle replicating data so each file is on two systems. Running RAID underneath will protect you in the event of a disk failure and then you have Gluster protecting you from total server failure. This would be significantly lower cost that EMC or NetApp and provide you with the same level of data protection. There is nothing wrong with "building it yourself" if you do it right.
- idknow1 16y agoartificially re-encoded [DR]NA sequences with redundant branching; OR: uuencode and compress with one of the newer high-end compressors like lrzip.
- max2grand 16y agoLotsa Drobo, Lotsa Hard drives, several pogoplugs. It would take 41 drobos filled with 328,2 TB drives. I don't think I'd hook up more than four drobos per pogo, so 11 pogoplugs. 328 HDs at $84.99=27876.72 41 drobos at $1,511.11=61955.51 11 pogoplugs at 98.75=1086.25 Total=90918.48 including shipping. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148413&nm_mc=OTC-Froogle&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle-_-Hard+Drives-_-Seagate-_-22148413 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822240016&nm_mc=OTC-Froogle&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle-_-Network+-+Storage-_-Drobo-_-22240016 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822240... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822601002&cm_re=pogoplug-_-22-601-002-_-Product http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822601...
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- jodrellblank 16y agoIn cases like this, is there any commercial hardware-accelerated compression tech which would make a useful difference? Not just tape drive hardware, something more clever. I know the latest WinZIP can losslessly recompress JPGs by fudging with the compression algorithm, for example. Or what about deduplication? Is there any deduplication tech which works on image visual similarity instead of file block matching?
- cambridgejacob 16y agoI do projects like this all of the time using an archival file system from a company called FileTek. FileTek is a software product that presents a tape library as a NAS. You use a small amount of disk as a cache. It then stores the data on tape with redundancy and all kinds of media management. I have several clients using with multiple PBs of capacity. If you contact the company ask for a guy named Diamond and tell him that Jacob sent you. www.filetek.com
- Mankhool 16y agoLTO5, 2 copies. I'm archiving TBs of video in a Final Cut Server environment this way. My 2 cents.