7 ms·

When companies like Uber/Lyft depend on safety nets like unemployment without ever paying into the system, what’s happening is that our children are paying for

When companies like Uber/Lyft depend on safety nets like unemployment without ever paying into the system, what’s happening is that our children are paying for returns on VC capital. People profiting from these types of companies should feel bad about themselves.

erichocean 6y ago
Now do Amazon.
- sneak 6y ago
  Amazon pays more in payroll taxes, SUI, and Social Security alone than the entire revenue of the vast majority of any company you could select in the world.
  - fsociety 6y ago
    Doesn’t Uber pay all that too? I feel like I’m missing the point.
    - throwawaygh 6y ago
      No, not for its drivers.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
c1b 6y ago
sounds like you don't know any Uber/Lyft drivers
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  I think it’s fairly clear I’m referring to the VC and founders who chose a business model that effectively arbitrages others’ belief in an obligation to contribute to the social safety net.
cltby 6y ago
When people like you create social safety nets like unemployment without ever paying into the system, "what's appending" is that Uber and Lyft are paying for your moral grandstanding. People shifting the costs of their moral choices to strangers should feel bad about themselves.
- vore 6y ago
  How are we not paying into the social safety net? That's literally what we as individuals pay for with taxes.
  - cltby 6y ago
    My comment was a (lame) play on the inane parent. Maybe you're paying, and maybe you're not. But if you are, you're doing so grudgingly. "I wouldn't have to pay taxes to support this gigantic welfare state I've repeatedly voted for if only greedy Uber and Lyft would pay for my moral principles!"
    - lovich 6y ago
      You can want a social safety net and also be upset at the free rider problem
      - throwawaygh 6y ago
        You can also not want a social safety net and also be upset at the free rider problem. Unless you’re living off returns on capital, your tax dollars and your children’s future tax dollars are keeping Uber/Lyft independent contractors fed and off the streets. I’m not sure why you’d be more angry at people who don’t want to see homelessness/hunger than at people who are pocketing everything in good times and peaking out in bad times.
        cltby 6y ago
        Ok I'll bite. Can you point me to something that shows that rideshare drivers would be hungry and homeless were it not for progressive generosity? Literally any sign that they disproportionately rely on public assistance? And to the extent they do, which they don't, did Uber and Lyft create that situation?
friedman23 6y ago
Uber and lyft would still exist without unemployment so how do they depend on them? If there was no unemployment insurance uber and lyft would still exist and saying that uber and lyft depend on these social safety nets is just dishonest rhetoric.
marcinzm 6y ago
Huh? As I understand it Uber/Lyft drivers are not eligible for unemployment benefits (recent laws/court rulings aside). So they don't depend on the safety nets in any way. edit: Unemployment insurance is paid by companies for their workers who may use it in the future. It's not a shared social obligation from taxes. Nor is everyone eligible to use it merely by existing.
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  From Lyft itself: https://www.lyft.com/hub/posts/how-the-cares-act-can-help-drivers-who-are-unemployed-due-to-covid-19 https://www.lyft.com/hub/posts/how-the-cares-act-can-help-dr...
- square90 6y ago
  The CARES Act and state-level programs are paying unemployment assistance to contractors and self-employed individuals not usually covered by unemployment [0], [1]. [0] https://www.edd.ca.gov/about_edd/coronavirus-2019/pandemic-unemployment-assistance.htm https://www.edd.ca.gov/about_edd/coronavirus-2019/pandemic-u... [1] https://www.edd.ca.gov/about_edd/coronavirus-2019/cares-act.htm https://www.edd.ca.gov/about_edd/coronavirus-2019/cares-act....
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    Which is a one-off "world is burning down" case which no one planned for or expected. Hardy a long term plan by the VCs to take advantage of everyone else. I'm guessing unemployment insurance didn't cover a lot of the rest of the unemployed either for COVID (as it ran out due to never being designed for this situation) so it came from taxes. In which case no one paid into the social safety net except through taxes (which Lyft/Uber are not exempt from).
    - throwawaygh 6y ago
      Any remotely competent student of history can foresee occasional economic crises with high unemployment. That’s why we have a national unemployment insurance scheme. Maybe you don’t foresee a pandemic, but only in the same way that you don’t foresee getting side-swiped when a car passes you while blowing its tire. Or having your house’s roof ripped off by a tornado. Totally unforeseeable events, but somewhat predicable circumstances. The bailouts in crises are not one off because there’s always going to be another crisis. Taking care of contractors who work for employers that arbitrage labor protections == corporate bailouts.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
hhsuey 6y ago
The gig economy model can be better, but I don't think it's helpful to blame individual companies. It's an entire system at play. Some people are totally happy with earning over a few hours a week. It's not a one size fits all system, so the model needs to be more flexible.
- grugagag 6y ago
  The gig economy exists only because of the rapid advancement in technology. When the law catches up with that maybe it will be fairer. Until then they take and cut corners on whatever the law hasn't caught up with yet.
chrischen 6y ago
Actually what happens is we get lower Uber/Lyft rates for consumers... consumers that may depend on it in low infrastructure areas such as other low income workers. In a competitive market there is no such thing as “free profit” for companies. Most savings that apply to all market competition across the board transfer to lower prices in the general market. Uber would only net the profit if for some reason it was the only company that didn’t have to offer those things out of pocket.
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  And, if those other people did it, then I would be saying this about them. “That’s how the world works” is the oldest justification for injustice. If capitalism really is just a spreadsheet feudalism that deprives even the yacht owners of human moral autonomy, then maybe it’s time to burn down the system. NB: I don’t buy it, and I think markets can function alongside patriotic responsibility.
  - chrischen 6y ago
    I'm not saying the way thing works is bad... it is how it works and it's the way it should be because it's good.
RIMR 6y ago
In what situation aren't investors borrowing from the future? That's basically the entire state of our economy right now: that the wealthy older generation invested heavily in the future, and then squandered that investment and stuck the younger generations with the bill.
mardifoufs 6y ago
That's pretty much the total opposite of what's happening right now. Uber (and the recent group of "tech but not really" unicorns in general) have if anything burnt hundreds of billions of VC/PE money thus directly subsidizing the costs of hundreds of millions of users, for very slim profits at best. Yes, it's because they are expecting future returns on their "burnt" money. But considering the risks, the enormous amounts involved, the meagre margins involved even in a market dominant postion and that there are still no signs of profitability or even positive cash flow, I don't see how this can be seen as just a wealth transfert from society to the wealthy. Even in their best case scenario, they will be able to get meagre returns from perpetually capital intensive, low margin businesses. That's far from obscene wealth extraction imo. Sure, some early VCs made tons of money off of this new era of unicorns, but that was pretty much all coming from other VC or private equity that have had to keep the money pump going.
- gamblor956 6y ago
  Where do you think VC funding comes from? VC's get their money from everyone else: pension funds, college endowments, charitable foundation endowments, and insurance companies. It quite literally is a case of our children funding this.
  - mardifoufs 6y ago
    I agree, though that's a whole different subject. VCs are usually a very small share of their portfolios, and I guess the high risks are well known. But it's true that VCs, private equity and bull markets in general, which people always think of as profiting mostly very rich people are actually essential to fund most retirement plans, pensions and insurances.
  - logicchains 6y ago
    Which pension funds are investing in VCs? Pension funds generally prefer less risky investments..
    - mardifoufs 6y ago
hexagone 6y ago
If drivers preferred full time employment over flexibility, wouldn't they have joined a traditional taxi/limo service instead of Uber or Lyft?

erichocean 6y ago

Now do Amazon.

sneak 6y ago
Amazon pays more in payroll taxes, SUI, and Social Security alone than the entire revenue of the vast majority of any company you could select in the world.
- fsociety 6y ago
  Doesn’t Uber pay all that too? I feel like I’m missing the point.
  - throwawaygh 6y ago
    No, not for its drivers.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

c1b 6y ago

sounds like you don't know any Uber/Lyft drivers

throwawaygh 6y ago
I think it’s fairly clear I’m referring to the VC and founders who chose a business model that effectively arbitrages others’ belief in an obligation to contribute to the social safety net.

cltby 6y ago

When people like you create social safety nets like unemployment without ever paying into the system, "what's appending" is that Uber and Lyft are paying for your moral grandstanding. People shifting the costs of their moral choices to strangers should feel bad about themselves.

vore 6y ago
How are we not paying into the social safety net? That's literally what we as individuals pay for with taxes.
- cltby 6y ago
  My comment was a (lame) play on the inane parent. Maybe you're paying, and maybe you're not. But if you are, you're doing so grudgingly. "I wouldn't have to pay taxes to support this gigantic welfare state I've repeatedly voted for if only greedy Uber and Lyft would pay for my moral principles!"
  - lovich 6y ago
    You can want a social safety net and also be upset at the free rider problem
    - throwawaygh 6y ago
      You can also not want a social safety net and also be upset at the free rider problem. Unless you’re living off returns on capital, your tax dollars and your children’s future tax dollars are keeping Uber/Lyft independent contractors fed and off the streets. I’m not sure why you’d be more angry at people who don’t want to see homelessness/hunger than at people who are pocketing everything in good times and peaking out in bad times.
      - cltby 6y ago
        Ok I'll bite. Can you point me to something that shows that rideshare drivers would be hungry and homeless were it not for progressive generosity? Literally any sign that they disproportionately rely on public assistance? And to the extent they do, which they don't, did Uber and Lyft create that situation?

friedman23 6y ago

Uber and lyft would still exist without unemployment so how do they depend on them? If there was no unemployment insurance uber and lyft would still exist and saying that uber and lyft depend on these social safety nets is just dishonest rhetoric.

marcinzm 6y ago

Huh? As I understand it Uber/Lyft drivers are not eligible for unemployment benefits (recent laws/court rulings aside). So they don't depend on the safety nets in any way. edit: Unemployment insurance is paid by companies for their workers who may use it in the future. It's not a shared social obligation from taxes. Nor is everyone eligible to use it merely by existing.

throwawaygh 6y ago
From Lyft itself: https://www.lyft.com/hub/posts/how-the-cares-act-can-help-drivers-who-are-unemployed-due-to-covid-19 https://www.lyft.com/hub/posts/how-the-cares-act-can-help-dr...
square90 6y ago
The CARES Act and state-level programs are paying unemployment assistance to contractors and self-employed individuals not usually covered by unemployment [0], [1]. [0] https://www.edd.ca.gov/about_edd/coronavirus-2019/pandemic-unemployment-assistance.htm https://www.edd.ca.gov/about_edd/coronavirus-2019/pandemic-u... [1] https://www.edd.ca.gov/about_edd/coronavirus-2019/cares-act.htm https://www.edd.ca.gov/about_edd/coronavirus-2019/cares-act....
- marcinzm 6y ago
  Which is a one-off "world is burning down" case which no one planned for or expected. Hardy a long term plan by the VCs to take advantage of everyone else. I'm guessing unemployment insurance didn't cover a lot of the rest of the unemployed either for COVID (as it ran out due to never being designed for this situation) so it came from taxes. In which case no one paid into the social safety net except through taxes (which Lyft/Uber are not exempt from).
  - throwawaygh 6y ago
    Any remotely competent student of history can foresee occasional economic crises with high unemployment. That’s why we have a national unemployment insurance scheme. Maybe you don’t foresee a pandemic, but only in the same way that you don’t foresee getting side-swiped when a car passes you while blowing its tire. Or having your house’s roof ripped off by a tornado. Totally unforeseeable events, but somewhat predicable circumstances. The bailouts in crises are not one off because there’s always going to be another crisis. Taking care of contractors who work for employers that arbitrage labor protections == corporate bailouts.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

hhsuey 6y ago

The gig economy model can be better, but I don't think it's helpful to blame individual companies. It's an entire system at play. Some people are totally happy with earning over a few hours a week. It's not a one size fits all system, so the model needs to be more flexible.

grugagag 6y ago
The gig economy exists only because of the rapid advancement in technology. When the law catches up with that maybe it will be fairer. Until then they take and cut corners on whatever the law hasn't caught up with yet.

chrischen 6y ago

Actually what happens is we get lower Uber/Lyft rates for consumers... consumers that may depend on it in low infrastructure areas such as other low income workers. In a competitive market there is no such thing as “free profit” for companies. Most savings that apply to all market competition across the board transfer to lower prices in the general market. Uber would only net the profit if for some reason it was the only company that didn’t have to offer those things out of pocket.

throwawaygh 6y ago
And, if those other people did it, then I would be saying this about them. “That’s how the world works” is the oldest justification for injustice. If capitalism really is just a spreadsheet feudalism that deprives even the yacht owners of human moral autonomy, then maybe it’s time to burn down the system. NB: I don’t buy it, and I think markets can function alongside patriotic responsibility.
- chrischen 6y ago
  I'm not saying the way thing works is bad... it is how it works and it's the way it should be because it's good.

RIMR 6y ago

In what situation aren't investors borrowing from the future? That's basically the entire state of our economy right now: that the wealthy older generation invested heavily in the future, and then squandered that investment and stuck the younger generations with the bill.

mardifoufs 6y ago

That's pretty much the total opposite of what's happening right now. Uber (and the recent group of "tech but not really" unicorns in general) have if anything burnt hundreds of billions of VC/PE money thus directly subsidizing the costs of hundreds of millions of users, for very slim profits at best. Yes, it's because they are expecting future returns on their "burnt" money. But considering the risks, the enormous amounts involved, the meagre margins involved even in a market dominant postion and that there are still no signs of profitability or even positive cash flow, I don't see how this can be seen as just a wealth transfert from society to the wealthy. Even in their best case scenario, they will be able to get meagre returns from perpetually capital intensive, low margin businesses. That's far from obscene wealth extraction imo. Sure, some early VCs made tons of money off of this new era of unicorns, but that was pretty much all coming from other VC or private equity that have had to keep the money pump going.

gamblor956 6y ago
Where do you think VC funding comes from? VC's get their money from everyone else: pension funds, college endowments, charitable foundation endowments, and insurance companies. It quite literally is a case of our children funding this.
- mardifoufs 6y ago
  I agree, though that's a whole different subject. VCs are usually a very small share of their portfolios, and I guess the high risks are well known. But it's true that VCs, private equity and bull markets in general, which people always think of as profiting mostly very rich people are actually essential to fund most retirement plans, pensions and insurances.
- logicchains 6y ago
  Which pension funds are investing in VCs? Pension funds generally prefer less risky investments..
  - mardifoufs 6y ago

hexagone 6y ago

If drivers preferred full time employment over flexibility, wouldn't they have joined a traditional taxi/limo service instead of Uber or Lyft?