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>What evidence do you have that "the traditional checks and balances of a healthy civil society" aren't working? Representative democracy now represents lobbyi

>What evidence do you have that "the traditional checks and balances of a healthy civil society" aren't working? Representative democracy now represents lobbyists rather than voters. Media now represents corporate interests rather than the public interest. This manifests in a new economic/political order: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/barrie-mckenna/gap-between-rich-and-poor-wont-be-closing-any-time-soon/article1740237/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary... >That we manage to arrive at a reasonable middle ground between all of these dissenting opinions seems to indicate that the system is working. Pretty much anyone I talk to, regardless of their political persuasion, doesn't feel the system is working. >I'm tired of hearing all of this posturing and justification for Anon just because you support what they support. That's unfortunate. Laws, the economy, culture, and politics have changed since the days of a functional civil society. It's unlikely that people in present circumstances will abide by standards of behavior that don't advance their interests. >So, sorry: DDoSes, stalking, harassment and vandalism are not "civil disobedience", they're just plain old despicable behavior. The tactics of the American and French revolutions were likely classifed as "despicable" as well by the out of touch and complacent, but history would be much different without these tactics. Many see Sony's abuse of power as "despicable". Sony is free to withdraw their aggression at any time.

drusenko 16y ago
> The tactics of the American and French revolutions were likely classifed as "despicable" as well by the out of touch and complacent, but history would be much different without these tactics. Many see Sony's abuse of power as "despicable". Sony is free to withdraw their aggression at any time. To compare the state we're in to those periods in time is very misleading. We have one of the highest qualities of life and some of the strongest freedoms than at any other point in time. Let's not lose perspective. We should "fight" for what we believe in and try to effect positive change, but we are extremely far away from the extreme times that warranted extreme revolutionary measures. > Pretty much anyone I talk to, regardless of their political persuasion, doesn't feel the system is working. That's a great sign that it is. Reminds me of the quote: "You know it's a great deal when both sides feel screwed."
- chopsueyar 16y ago
  That's a great sign that it is. So what, the system only started working very recently?
- mcantelon 16y ago
  >To compare the state we're in to those periods in time is very misleading. We have one of the highest qualities of life and some of the strongest freedoms than at any other point in time. Let's not lose perspective. A time like ours, in which there's a massive societal shift (the rapid shrinking of the middle class as a result of globalization) accompanied by a financial crisis, is actually quite comparable to the environments that fostered the American and French revolutions. The French revolution was preceded by a financial crisis and enlarged public debt due to foreign wars. Back then it was nobility and the clergy that managed to avoid taxation and whose interests were overrepresented by the state. In our times the wealthy and corporations have gained this favor. >That's a great sign that it is. Reminds me of the quote: "You know it's a great deal when both sides feel screwed." Ah. So by this logic revolutionary America and France also had "working" systems.
btilly 16y ago
Representative democracy now represents lobbyists rather than voters. Media now represents corporate interests rather than the public interest. NOW represents? That suggests that it has changed sometime in the last century. But from everything that I have read, the corruption is actually less today than it was a hundred years ago. Pretty much anyone I talk to, regardless of their political persuasion, doesn't feel the system is working. Oh the system is working, alright. It just isn't working for _you_. :-P
- jbooth 16y ago
  Petty corruption and backhanders are one thing. Institutionalized, legitimized corruption is a different thing entirely, and yes it's at a new level these days. See Citizens United. See the recent decision allowing corporations to run ads in elections. (they broke the spending record in a MIDTERM in 2010).
  - btilly 16y ago
    Institutionalized, legitimized corruption is a different thing entirely, and yes it's at a new level these days. I far prefer to have corporations run ads in elections to having corporations purchase senate seats. And when I say purchase, I do mean purchase. Prior to the 17th amendment senators were generally appointed by state legislatures, and it was surprisingly common for corporations to pay the legislatures to make their man senator. This was the impetus for the 17th amendment. If you want institutionalized corruption, read up on Tammany Hall. If you want legitimized corruption, read up on the history of how the 14th amendment was so narrowly interpreted to prevent enforcement of its plain intent. We are not talking about minor injustices. For example in the Colfax massacre over 100 blacks were killed. Everyone knew who did it, only 3 were convicted of anything, and those convictions were overturned by the Supreme Court. This decision was widely applauded. If you think that things are worse today, I'll need some serious convincing.
    - jbooth 16y ago
      Dude, what do you think the easiest way to purchase a senate seat is? In most states it costs a couple million dollars to run a campaign for a job that pays 200k. I understand that a lot of conservatives want to go back to the 1850s but that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about as recently as 25-50 years ago when the current state of affairs would have been a scandal. And heck, even during Tammany Hall, such bribery was at least technically illegal, and widespread breaking of the law meant our elected officials said "how do we stop this". Now it's not only legal, it's encouraged, and our leaders are trying to enable more of it.

drusenko 16y ago

> The tactics of the American and French revolutions were likely classifed as "despicable" as well by the out of touch and complacent, but history would be much different without these tactics. Many see Sony's abuse of power as "despicable". Sony is free to withdraw their aggression at any time. To compare the state we're in to those periods in time is very misleading. We have one of the highest qualities of life and some of the strongest freedoms than at any other point in time. Let's not lose perspective. We should "fight" for what we believe in and try to effect positive change, but we are extremely far away from the extreme times that warranted extreme revolutionary measures. > Pretty much anyone I talk to, regardless of their political persuasion, doesn't feel the system is working. That's a great sign that it is. Reminds me of the quote: "You know it's a great deal when both sides feel screwed."

chopsueyar 16y ago
That's a great sign that it is. So what, the system only started working very recently?
mcantelon 16y ago
>To compare the state we're in to those periods in time is very misleading. We have one of the highest qualities of life and some of the strongest freedoms than at any other point in time. Let's not lose perspective. A time like ours, in which there's a massive societal shift (the rapid shrinking of the middle class as a result of globalization) accompanied by a financial crisis, is actually quite comparable to the environments that fostered the American and French revolutions. The French revolution was preceded by a financial crisis and enlarged public debt due to foreign wars. Back then it was nobility and the clergy that managed to avoid taxation and whose interests were overrepresented by the state. In our times the wealthy and corporations have gained this favor. >That's a great sign that it is. Reminds me of the quote: "You know it's a great deal when both sides feel screwed." Ah. So by this logic revolutionary America and France also had "working" systems.

btilly 16y ago

Representative democracy now represents lobbyists rather than voters. Media now represents corporate interests rather than the public interest. NOW represents? That suggests that it has changed sometime in the last century. But from everything that I have read, the corruption is actually less today than it was a hundred years ago. Pretty much anyone I talk to, regardless of their political persuasion, doesn't feel the system is working. Oh the system is working, alright. It just isn't working for _you_. :-P

jbooth 16y ago
Petty corruption and backhanders are one thing. Institutionalized, legitimized corruption is a different thing entirely, and yes it's at a new level these days. See Citizens United. See the recent decision allowing corporations to run ads in elections. (they broke the spending record in a MIDTERM in 2010).
- btilly 16y ago
  Institutionalized, legitimized corruption is a different thing entirely, and yes it's at a new level these days. I far prefer to have corporations run ads in elections to having corporations purchase senate seats. And when I say purchase, I do mean purchase. Prior to the 17th amendment senators were generally appointed by state legislatures, and it was surprisingly common for corporations to pay the legislatures to make their man senator. This was the impetus for the 17th amendment. If you want institutionalized corruption, read up on Tammany Hall. If you want legitimized corruption, read up on the history of how the 14th amendment was so narrowly interpreted to prevent enforcement of its plain intent. We are not talking about minor injustices. For example in the Colfax massacre over 100 blacks were killed. Everyone knew who did it, only 3 were convicted of anything, and those convictions were overturned by the Supreme Court. This decision was widely applauded. If you think that things are worse today, I'll need some serious convincing.
  - jbooth 16y ago
    Dude, what do you think the easiest way to purchase a senate seat is? In most states it costs a couple million dollars to run a campaign for a job that pays 200k. I understand that a lot of conservatives want to go back to the 1850s but that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about as recently as 25-50 years ago when the current state of affairs would have been a scandal. And heck, even during Tammany Hall, such bribery was at least technically illegal, and widespread breaking of the law meant our elected officials said "how do we stop this". Now it's not only legal, it's encouraged, and our leaders are trying to enable more of it.