6 ms·

This is a true and an important concern. Municipalities and counties in California really need to step up their game and provide a viable and cheap to use alter

This is a true and an important concern. Municipalities and counties in California really need to step up their game and provide a viable and cheap to use alternative. Everybody deserves to be able to go where they want within their community when they want to. And we should provide these without relying on private companies with questionable labor practices.

jdoliner 6y ago
Why step up and provide a viable and cheap alternative when you can just step down and not kill the existing cheap alternative?
- runarberg 6y ago
  Because these cheap alternatives rely on questionable labor practices. People with limited mobility deserve the same freedom of movement as fully abled people, however that cannot come at the cost of the workers who provide it. We should be asking for both adequate transportation and fully compensated and decently paid workers.
benrbray 6y ago
Americans spent $1 TRILLION on personal transport (cars + car insurance, mainly) in 2017 [1]. Imagine if just half that went to building local subway networks / high-speed rail across the country / expanding bus options. [1]: https://www.itdp.org/2019/05/23/high-cost-transportation-united-states/ https://www.itdp.org/2019/05/23/high-cost-transportation-uni...
- core-questions 6y ago
  Yeah, that'd be great when they shut it all down for the next pandemic
  - benrbray 6y ago
    This is a dishonest argument. Compared to the United States, countries like Japan, Germany, and others in Europe have been much more successful at containing the pandemic, even with their extensive public transport systems. Our transportation system is entirely based on individual travel, and yet we cannot keep cases under control. Besides, this situation is not permanent. We should not live in complete isolation out of fear for the next pandemic. Instead, we should learn from our mistakes this time around, and agree on an appropriate course of action to protect against future contagions.
    - core-questions 6y ago
      I live outside of the USA. I used to take our electric rail system all the time. Haven't touched it since January and won't go back till next year. Have fallen in love with driving and the personal convenience of it all over again. Even when the pandemic is over, I might end up driving more often than before. It's so nice to know that I can just stay somewhere until I want to leave, to know that I can go wherever I want at whatever time, without having to worry about coordinating it with anyone else. Profoundly enabling, even as it is sickeningly individualist.
      - runarberg 6y ago
        You might reconsider when the pandemic is actually over and more people start carrying this mindset that will increase traffic. But that is besides the point, what you personally feel doesn’t really matter. Your previous comment is still incredibly dishonest. Functioning frequent and convenient mass transit system is enabling for far more people then personal transports. Even during a pandemic there are ways to mitigate the risk of spreading the virus. And even if not, a pandemic is a temporary situation, and after it is over the infrastructure is still there to enable much more people to transport them self, in varying physical conditions, without sacrificing the working conditions and benefits of the transportation workers.
        core-questions 6y ago
        > But that is besides the point, what you personally feel doesn’t really matter. Your previous comment is still incredibly dishonest. If I say what I believe, it's not dishonest. It might be _wrong_, but it's not a lie.
- glglwty 6y ago
  California proved that $100B won't even build you a high speed rail between SF and LA. The cost of convincing people to change their mind, is still cost.
  - runarberg 6y ago
    At least we know now that a $100B will get you a high speed train from Bakersfield to Merced in 10 years behind schedule. I think though that California has an extreme case of NIMBY-ism which makes much needed projects like these so much harder then then should be. I’m sure similar projects in Texas between Houston and Dallas would be far easier to complete on schedule. Similar with the Cascadian corridor between Portland OR, and Vancouver BC. Although I see the Pacific North Western politicians capitalizing on this project for a few decades to win a few more election before this projects gets a go-ahead.
jessedhillon 6y ago
If only there could be an efficient method for connecting those who need to travel with those who can provide them with transportation.
- cool_dude85 6y ago
  Wait a sec - this efficient method doesn't involve abusing contractor status to not pay employees benefits, does it? If it does, I'd rather come up with another idea, thanks.
  - jessedhillon 6y ago
    You're right, we'll make it completely voluntary for the transportation providers to participate.
    - runarberg 6y ago
      This myth of voluntary participation in capitalism has been debunked many time. When you need to sell you labor in order to feed and house you and your family, it isn’t voluntary by a long shot. It is not a free market because the employer has a significant advantage. This is why we need labor regulations and protections. When a workplace fills out their labor needs with contractors, it is an obvious way to circumvent these necessary labor regulations and protections. So you are wrong—as California is proofing—unregulated gig-capitalism is not a system that can provide fair working conditions and cheap accessible transportation at the same time.
      - jessedhillon 6y ago
        So your assertion is that unless a person has all of their basic needs met, they are providing labor compulsorily? If we're just starting from Marxist axioms, whereby all relations between classes are best understood as power struggles, then sure everything you said follows. We're not, however, so you have quite the circular argument going on here. By any reasonable definition, I am not compelled to work -- despite laboring in order to myself and my family fed and housed. Power struggles are a poor lens for understanding this dynamic.

jdoliner 6y ago

Why step up and provide a viable and cheap alternative when you can just step down and not kill the existing cheap alternative?

runarberg 6y ago
Because these cheap alternatives rely on questionable labor practices. People with limited mobility deserve the same freedom of movement as fully abled people, however that cannot come at the cost of the workers who provide it. We should be asking for both adequate transportation and fully compensated and decently paid workers.

benrbray 6y ago

Americans spent $1 TRILLION on personal transport (cars + car insurance, mainly) in 2017 [1]. Imagine if just half that went to building local subway networks / high-speed rail across the country / expanding bus options. [1]: https://www.itdp.org/2019/05/23/high-cost-transportation-united-states/ https://www.itdp.org/2019/05/23/high-cost-transportation-uni...

core-questions 6y ago
Yeah, that'd be great when they shut it all down for the next pandemic
- benrbray 6y ago
  This is a dishonest argument. Compared to the United States, countries like Japan, Germany, and others in Europe have been much more successful at containing the pandemic, even with their extensive public transport systems. Our transportation system is entirely based on individual travel, and yet we cannot keep cases under control. Besides, this situation is not permanent. We should not live in complete isolation out of fear for the next pandemic. Instead, we should learn from our mistakes this time around, and agree on an appropriate course of action to protect against future contagions.
  - core-questions 6y ago
    I live outside of the USA. I used to take our electric rail system all the time. Haven't touched it since January and won't go back till next year. Have fallen in love with driving and the personal convenience of it all over again. Even when the pandemic is over, I might end up driving more often than before. It's so nice to know that I can just stay somewhere until I want to leave, to know that I can go wherever I want at whatever time, without having to worry about coordinating it with anyone else. Profoundly enabling, even as it is sickeningly individualist.
    - runarberg 6y ago
      You might reconsider when the pandemic is actually over and more people start carrying this mindset that will increase traffic. But that is besides the point, what you personally feel doesn’t really matter. Your previous comment is still incredibly dishonest. Functioning frequent and convenient mass transit system is enabling for far more people then personal transports. Even during a pandemic there are ways to mitigate the risk of spreading the virus. And even if not, a pandemic is a temporary situation, and after it is over the infrastructure is still there to enable much more people to transport them self, in varying physical conditions, without sacrificing the working conditions and benefits of the transportation workers.
      - core-questions 6y ago
        > But that is besides the point, what you personally feel doesn’t really matter. Your previous comment is still incredibly dishonest. If I say what I believe, it's not dishonest. It might be _wrong_, but it's not a lie.
glglwty 6y ago
California proved that $100B won't even build you a high speed rail between SF and LA. The cost of convincing people to change their mind, is still cost.
- runarberg 6y ago
  At least we know now that a $100B will get you a high speed train from Bakersfield to Merced in 10 years behind schedule. I think though that California has an extreme case of NIMBY-ism which makes much needed projects like these so much harder then then should be. I’m sure similar projects in Texas between Houston and Dallas would be far easier to complete on schedule. Similar with the Cascadian corridor between Portland OR, and Vancouver BC. Although I see the Pacific North Western politicians capitalizing on this project for a few decades to win a few more election before this projects gets a go-ahead.

jessedhillon 6y ago

If only there could be an efficient method for connecting those who need to travel with those who can provide them with transportation.

cool_dude85 6y ago
Wait a sec - this efficient method doesn't involve abusing contractor status to not pay employees benefits, does it? If it does, I'd rather come up with another idea, thanks.
- jessedhillon 6y ago
  You're right, we'll make it completely voluntary for the transportation providers to participate.
  - runarberg 6y ago
    This myth of voluntary participation in capitalism has been debunked many time. When you need to sell you labor in order to feed and house you and your family, it isn’t voluntary by a long shot. It is not a free market because the employer has a significant advantage. This is why we need labor regulations and protections. When a workplace fills out their labor needs with contractors, it is an obvious way to circumvent these necessary labor regulations and protections. So you are wrong—as California is proofing—unregulated gig-capitalism is not a system that can provide fair working conditions and cheap accessible transportation at the same time.
    - jessedhillon 6y ago
      So your assertion is that unless a person has all of their basic needs met, they are providing labor compulsorily? If we're just starting from Marxist axioms, whereby all relations between classes are best understood as power struggles, then sure everything you said follows. We're not, however, so you have quite the circular argument going on here. By any reasonable definition, I am not compelled to work -- despite laboring in order to myself and my family fed and housed. Power struggles are a poor lens for understanding this dynamic.