6 ms·

It’ll be curious how censorship will work when you can access the internet with a small antenna(easily hidden) anywhere on the planet.

dwiel 6y ago
Wont nation states be able to use basic triangulation to find out where people are and prosecute them heavily? Also wont nation states be able to tell Starlink to not transmit in china if they dont want Tesla factory nationalized or other similar threats?
- YarickR2 6y ago
  Nation states will jam Starlink ; GPS jamming is easy , there's no reason to thing Starlnk jamming will be much more difficult.
  - cevans01 6y ago
    GPS and LEO satellite internet are very different. GPS is meant to be received by near-omnidirectional antennas anywhere on the planet. Starlink satellites will place multiple spot-beams acting as cells and customer receivers are high directional as well. Jamming Starlink would require satellite tracking and high gain antennas. And you would have to have separate jammers for each spotbeam that the starlink satellite casts on the ground.
sgillen 6y ago
I think active antennas are harder to hide than you might think.
- cutemonster 6y ago
  Also if they only receive data, don't send / upload anything? A old times radio receiver, it cannot be detected? Or can it Or TV antenna? That receives only
  - klyrs 6y ago
    Yes, you can locate even passive antennas by broadcasting a wide-band signal and looking at the reflected spectrum. It's way easier if you know the frequency that the antenna is tuned to.
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    If the receiver uses mixing (like a superhet) it is trivial to detect radiation from the receiver. This was widespread 70 years ago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_RAFTER https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_RAFTER) and has almost definitely been expanded to modern radio by today's spy agencies.
    - tonyarkles 6y ago
      There are commercial receivers that can be placed near the side of the road to measure the popularity of broadcast FM stations by measuring LO leakage. Definitely not limited to TLAs.
  - topspin 6y ago
    > A old times radio receiver, it cannot be detected? Or can it Old times radio receivers are low power transmitters. Their local oscillators leak out of the antenna enthusiastically. The physics hasn't changed. There is far less leakage in modern receivers, but our detectors are way more sensitive as well. And if you're a nation-state and free to fly drones over rooftops looking.... yeah, don't believe anyone that claims they can operate anything involving electromagnetic energy without risk of detection.
klyrs 6y ago
If all you need is a receiver, you're right that an antenna is reasonably difficult -- not impossible -- to locate. But if you want to request a resource from a satellite, you need to broadcast a signal. And that's very easy to locate. Even tightbeams are scattered and reflected, so can be triangulated by ground receivers.
- laksdjfkasljdf 6y ago
  Not impossible. mesh network/TOR for uplink can solve that. not to mention it can work as a backup connection when the high bandwidth downlink satellite is nuked/lasered(?) from orbit.
  - Avamander 6y ago
    Every node in that mesh network will get a missile, problem solved.
    - laksdjfkasljdf 6y ago
      mesh network and tor/etc over clearnet is already a solution in many, unfortunate, parts of the world. It's just slow for the most part.
      - Yc4win 6y ago
        Isn't tor blocked in many high-risk censor areas? I know cellular was blocking it during the peak of the war in Syria.
        laksdjfkasljdf 6y ago
        just like many other traffic. But it's mostly done via routes. that's why people use actual real world personal networks to share hidden TOR guards. ...until everyone start with DPI
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
krisoft 6y ago
The censor triangulates your signal and fires artilery shells at you: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/02/satphones-syria-and-surveillance https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/02/satphones-syria-and-su... Now obviously satphones use very different protocols from these modern internet constellations but I wouldn’t bet my life on them being impossible to triangulate.
- topspin 6y ago
  > I wouldn’t bet my life on them being impossible to triangulate. Don't bet anything at all. A drone with a phased array antenna pointing down will draw you a map directly to every transmitting base station that exists.
- echelon 6y ago
  Make a double hop. Give your antenna a cellular connection, route over a few hops, cover your tracks.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
elihu 6y ago
In most cases, I think the censor nation would lodge a complaint against the country of origin of the offending communications satellites, and the owners of the satellites would then be prohibited from operating in those countries. If using international treaties doesn't work or is deemed too slow, the censor nation might pursue other means.

dwiel 6y ago

Wont nation states be able to use basic triangulation to find out where people are and prosecute them heavily? Also wont nation states be able to tell Starlink to not transmit in china if they dont want Tesla factory nationalized or other similar threats?

YarickR2 6y ago
Nation states will jam Starlink ; GPS jamming is easy , there's no reason to thing Starlnk jamming will be much more difficult.
- cevans01 6y ago
  GPS and LEO satellite internet are very different. GPS is meant to be received by near-omnidirectional antennas anywhere on the planet. Starlink satellites will place multiple spot-beams acting as cells and customer receivers are high directional as well. Jamming Starlink would require satellite tracking and high gain antennas. And you would have to have separate jammers for each spotbeam that the starlink satellite casts on the ground.

sgillen 6y ago

I think active antennas are harder to hide than you might think.

cutemonster 6y ago
Also if they only receive data, don't send / upload anything? A old times radio receiver, it cannot be detected? Or can it Or TV antenna? That receives only
- klyrs 6y ago
  Yes, you can locate even passive antennas by broadcasting a wide-band signal and looking at the reflected spectrum. It's way easier if you know the frequency that the antenna is tuned to.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  If the receiver uses mixing (like a superhet) it is trivial to detect radiation from the receiver. This was widespread 70 years ago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_RAFTER https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_RAFTER) and has almost definitely been expanded to modern radio by today's spy agencies.
  - tonyarkles 6y ago
    There are commercial receivers that can be placed near the side of the road to measure the popularity of broadcast FM stations by measuring LO leakage. Definitely not limited to TLAs.
- topspin 6y ago
  > A old times radio receiver, it cannot be detected? Or can it Old times radio receivers are low power transmitters. Their local oscillators leak out of the antenna enthusiastically. The physics hasn't changed. There is far less leakage in modern receivers, but our detectors are way more sensitive as well. And if you're a nation-state and free to fly drones over rooftops looking.... yeah, don't believe anyone that claims they can operate anything involving electromagnetic energy without risk of detection.

klyrs 6y ago

If all you need is a receiver, you're right that an antenna is reasonably difficult -- not impossible -- to locate. But if you want to request a resource from a satellite, you need to broadcast a signal. And that's very easy to locate. Even tightbeams are scattered and reflected, so can be triangulated by ground receivers.

laksdjfkasljdf 6y ago
Not impossible. mesh network/TOR for uplink can solve that. not to mention it can work as a backup connection when the high bandwidth downlink satellite is nuked/lasered(?) from orbit.
- Avamander 6y ago
  Every node in that mesh network will get a missile, problem solved.
  - laksdjfkasljdf 6y ago
    mesh network and tor/etc over clearnet is already a solution in many, unfortunate, parts of the world. It's just slow for the most part.
    - Yc4win 6y ago
      Isn't tor blocked in many high-risk censor areas? I know cellular was blocking it during the peak of the war in Syria.
      - laksdjfkasljdf 6y ago
        just like many other traffic. But it's mostly done via routes. that's why people use actual real world personal networks to share hidden TOR guards. ...until everyone start with DPI
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]

krisoft 6y ago

The censor triangulates your signal and fires artilery shells at you: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/02/satphones-syria-and-surveillance https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/02/satphones-syria-and-su... Now obviously satphones use very different protocols from these modern internet constellations but I wouldn’t bet my life on them being impossible to triangulate.

topspin 6y ago
> I wouldn’t bet my life on them being impossible to triangulate. Don't bet anything at all. A drone with a phased array antenna pointing down will draw you a map directly to every transmitting base station that exists.
echelon 6y ago
Make a double hop. Give your antenna a cellular connection, route over a few hops, cover your tracks.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

elihu 6y ago

In most cases, I think the censor nation would lodge a complaint against the country of origin of the offending communications satellites, and the owners of the satellites would then be prohibited from operating in those countries. If using international treaties doesn't work or is deemed too slow, the censor nation might pursue other means.