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I'm still active on the left and very much into social & economic justice, but I often notice how much division these anti-sexist and anti-racist tactics create

I'm still active on the left and very much into social & economic justice, but I often notice how much division these anti-sexist and anti-racist tactics create inside the left political spectrum. I don't think a lot of these tactics are friendly, engaging, and a lot are destined to generate more negative outcomes and thoughts about left policy, structural racism & sexism in my opinion. As Fred Hampton once said, you don't fight fire with fire, you fight fire with water. I agree that it almost seems like active sabotage.

daveslash 6y ago
I agree with you, and would like to add my thoughts. I realize that the people on the left who engage in such toxic tactics are a minority, but I feel the need to say something: Several people in my friends/family circle lean very much to the right, and they don't seem to really understand that the left-extremists are the minority; and extremists on the right are clutching onto these rare demonstrations and telling their conservative base that this is "all leftists". I personally know several people who equate a vote for Biden as a vote to bring exactly this type of toxic behavior mainstream - they have told me exactly that. These sorts of extreme tactics on the left push many right-leaning people into the far-right-extremes. There are a lot of legitimate points on both sides of the aisle, and it's not my intent to downplay either side here, but I do mean to say that these sorts of tactics are more than mere self-sabotage by the people employing them -- they're actively divisive.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > I personally know several people who equate a vote for Biden as a vote to bring exactly this type of toxic behavior mainstream - they have told me exactly that. These sorts of extreme tactics on the left push many right-leaning people into the far-right-extremes. As someone who used to be more on the right who's moving leftward (because of the current administration and a building frustration with many right wing ideas and attitudes), I can testify to the repulsive effect that these kind of displays have. I know these kinds of people are a minority, but they still concern me because of the power a zealous minority can wield in a party due to their zeal.
- everdrive 6y ago
  I want to start by saying that I generally agree with everything you’ve said. I think this tendency to conflate the most extreme faction with the whole is a new, modern problem. People have always done this to some degree, the extremism of modern media (and social media) allow for regular exposure to fringe views that would otherwise be invisible to most people. And, the effect is twofold: 1) people tend to conflate the worst part of a faction with the whole faction, and 2) having witnessed the same phenomenon on the other side, people are more ready to either ignore or integrate extremism from their own side. It is also likely that this extremism of their own side is easily ignored because they know from personal experience that it’s not representative. I think we’re living in an age where radicalism is mainstream.
- rayiner 6y ago
  I followed the primaries closely, and based on the uniformly left political positions folks were taking, it seemed to me at the time that the supposed minority was very powerful. Consider the near-universal use of the term “LatinX.” Apparently, 76% of Hispanic people have never even heard the term. Out of those who have heard it, 2/3 object to it being used to describe Hispanics. Only 3% use the term themselves. https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in-four-u-s-hispanics-have-heard-of-latinx-but-just-3-use-it/ https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in... One under appreciated aspect of all this is that these folks, while a minority overall, are highly overrepresented among people with power. Democrat voters might not use “LatinX.” But the college-educated “wonks” who will actually be turning the gears of the Biden administration may well do so.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    Note that the person who actually won the primaries, overwhelmingly, both does not use the term "latinx" and did not support most of the "uniformly left political positions folks were taking". It's almost as if interesting but implausible left political positions are attention-grabbing and commandeer the news cycle out of proportion to their actual importance. Or that Twitter isn't real life.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      I agree. (I have to admit being a bit sheepish at being surprised how conventional Biden's speech was.) I was referring to what it seemed like to me at the time, based on what I was seeing on the news/on social media. My point is that OP's "friends/family circle" don't necessarily have the information to put what they see on TV or read on Twitter in context. I do think that these folks may have more institutional pull than people realize. People here in the D.C. halo are increasingly insulated from what the folks they claim to be speaking for really want (or talk like or think like).
      - tptacek 6y ago
        The House majority, the margin of which Pelosi built out of ~30 suburban districts, pulls strongly against that. I think what remains --- in particular, the racial justice focus (less the fringe "defund the police" stuff that Biden actively runs against) --- are genuine positions held by the majority of the party.

daveslash 6y ago

I agree with you, and would like to add my thoughts. I realize that the people on the left who engage in such toxic tactics are a minority, but I feel the need to say something: Several people in my friends/family circle lean very much to the right, and they don't seem to really understand that the left-extremists are the minority; and extremists on the right are clutching onto these rare demonstrations and telling their conservative base that this is "all leftists". I personally know several people who equate a vote for Biden as a vote to bring exactly this type of toxic behavior mainstream - they have told me exactly that. These sorts of extreme tactics on the left push many right-leaning people into the far-right-extremes. There are a lot of legitimate points on both sides of the aisle, and it's not my intent to downplay either side here, but I do mean to say that these sorts of tactics are more than mere self-sabotage by the people employing them -- they're actively divisive.

ardy42 6y ago
> I personally know several people who equate a vote for Biden as a vote to bring exactly this type of toxic behavior mainstream - they have told me exactly that. These sorts of extreme tactics on the left push many right-leaning people into the far-right-extremes. As someone who used to be more on the right who's moving leftward (because of the current administration and a building frustration with many right wing ideas and attitudes), I can testify to the repulsive effect that these kind of displays have. I know these kinds of people are a minority, but they still concern me because of the power a zealous minority can wield in a party due to their zeal.
everdrive 6y ago
I want to start by saying that I generally agree with everything you’ve said. I think this tendency to conflate the most extreme faction with the whole is a new, modern problem. People have always done this to some degree, the extremism of modern media (and social media) allow for regular exposure to fringe views that would otherwise be invisible to most people. And, the effect is twofold: 1) people tend to conflate the worst part of a faction with the whole faction, and 2) having witnessed the same phenomenon on the other side, people are more ready to either ignore or integrate extremism from their own side. It is also likely that this extremism of their own side is easily ignored because they know from personal experience that it’s not representative. I think we’re living in an age where radicalism is mainstream.
rayiner 6y ago
I followed the primaries closely, and based on the uniformly left political positions folks were taking, it seemed to me at the time that the supposed minority was very powerful. Consider the near-universal use of the term “LatinX.” Apparently, 76% of Hispanic people have never even heard the term. Out of those who have heard it, 2/3 object to it being used to describe Hispanics. Only 3% use the term themselves. https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in-four-u-s-hispanics-have-heard-of-latinx-but-just-3-use-it/ https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in... One under appreciated aspect of all this is that these folks, while a minority overall, are highly overrepresented among people with power. Democrat voters might not use “LatinX.” But the college-educated “wonks” who will actually be turning the gears of the Biden administration may well do so.
- tptacek 6y ago
  Note that the person who actually won the primaries, overwhelmingly, both does not use the term "latinx" and did not support most of the "uniformly left political positions folks were taking". It's almost as if interesting but implausible left political positions are attention-grabbing and commandeer the news cycle out of proportion to their actual importance. Or that Twitter isn't real life.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    I agree. (I have to admit being a bit sheepish at being surprised how conventional Biden's speech was.) I was referring to what it seemed like to me at the time, based on what I was seeing on the news/on social media. My point is that OP's "friends/family circle" don't necessarily have the information to put what they see on TV or read on Twitter in context. I do think that these folks may have more institutional pull than people realize. People here in the D.C. halo are increasingly insulated from what the folks they claim to be speaking for really want (or talk like or think like).
    - tptacek 6y ago
      The House majority, the margin of which Pelosi built out of ~30 suburban districts, pulls strongly against that. I think what remains --- in particular, the racial justice focus (less the fringe "defund the police" stuff that Biden actively runs against) --- are genuine positions held by the majority of the party.