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Oh come on, save your silly sarcasm for reddit. If someone doesn't want to use the App Store for their app they have NO OTHER OPTION. Nobody cares about other

by tingol 6y ago

Oh come on, save your silly sarcasm for reddit. If someone doesn't want to use the App Store for their app they have NO OTHER OPTION. Nobody cares about other markets, but you can't even host your own app! You are forced to give up 30% of your app revenue just to be in their walled garden. That is monopolistic in every possible way. And stop with the childish "ooh we're gonna end up like Android". Android devices are more than capable to hold their own against Apple's offerings nowadays and I haven't heard anyone complain about viruses and malware in like five years now. And when I want to install an open source app I can do so on Android but Apple wants to tell me I can't after I spent $1k on their shiny phone. Amazing stuff, let's not lose it for something silly like user and developers having a fucking choice.

52-6F-62 6y ago
One of the reasons I bought an iPhone is because there are no vectors for arbitrary software installation.
- gameswithgo 6y ago
  Maybe one day an app you depend on will be made no longer allowed by apple's changing policies and then you will get it. shrug
  - simonh 6y ago
    Maybe one day the sky will fall on all our heads. But to your point, sure if an Android phone does the job better for me then I'd buy one. Right now they don't and one of the reasons is the different development and distribution model.
  - 52-6F-62 6y ago
    I didn't think this current debate was caused by Apple changing policies, but to actually force Apple to change policies.
    - jasonlotito 6y ago
      At the very least, to play fair. They aren't even being honest when they say everyone gets the same deal on the App Store. We know this isn't true.
      - 52-6F-62 6y ago
        A discussion about rates/App Store contracts seems like a different discussion—and one I'm all for. But I personally would not like having the system I bought as a phone suddenly change in function allowing side-loaded software. (Similar to how I'm not happy that, in time, the PC-controlled Oculus hardware I've owned for several years will soon be useless without an FB account.)
        lukeschlather 6y ago
        > But I personally would not like having the system I bought as a phone suddenly change in function allowing side-loaded software. This is exactly the problem. Apple can and does routinely change the functioning of their phones, and if you prefer the old functionality you have no recourse, because Apple contractually forbids you from installing software of your choosing.
        52-6F-62 6y ago
        My phone hasn’t changed in function. I’m not sure what you’re getting at. They don’t contractually forbid me from anything I haven’t agreed with by buying this device. I bought an iPhone specifically because it is locked down and simple.
- fauigerzigerk 6y ago
  The only vector would be you.
- tingol 6y ago
  What are the vectors on android?
- X6S1x6Okd1st 6y ago
  Are you concerned about third parties gaining access to your iPhone and installing software you don't want?
  - dodobirdlord 6y ago
    Not OP, but of course. This is a realistic threat when traveling internationally and passing through customs. In most countries, if border security agents want to walk off with your phone for a while you can't refuse. Many organizations have a "devices that enter China stay in China" policy for exactly this reason.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Yes??? https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vulnerability-leads-to-googleepic-games-spat/?amp=1 https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vu...
- stingraycharles 6y ago
  Then you wouldn’t install third-party App stores and just use only Apple’s. The choice would be yours. Right now we don’t have a choice, and that is a problem. I fail to see why people think this is such a problem on this forum. It’s as people think all hell and doom breaks lose if, god forbid, developers are able to distribute apps themselves.
  - dodobirdlord 6y ago
    > Right now we don’t have a choice, and that is a problem. It may be a problem to you, but for other people it's a feature. Some people have more involved threat models than you are keeping in mind. They don't want their device to be able to run arbitrary code or unsigned code. Having this feature but having a toggle to turn it off defeats the purpose. Maybe you disagree, but HN is shockingly flippant about dismissing this extremely legitimate security concern, and comments like this are a perfect example.
    - Dayshine 6y ago
      Uh, isn't this was Enterprise registered iPhones are for? I was under the impression Apple are perfectly happy to charge you a ton to be able to have group policy style control over Apple devices. Which would obvious include locking that particular feature down.
      - lukeschlather 6y ago
        Well, and that's kind of an extension of this. Real security where you own the phone and the software for it is a premium feature only available to people who can pay <ask for quote.>
- stale2002 6y ago
  Ok, so then don't install other app stores on your phone. Is that really so difficult for you? Why do you need to prevent me from installing other apps stores, when you can just not do that yourself.
- failuser 6y ago
  No intentional user-facing arbitrary software installation vectors. Safari, WhatsApp or whatever you use will serve that role whether they were designed to or not.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
simonh 6y ago
If Android can hold its own then there is no monopoly. If they don’t want to use the App Store, don’t get an iPhone. It’s that simple. A monopoly is when customers have no choice, but in smartphones with the ability to run apps, they clearly do. I like my choice and so do a lot of other people, why can’t you just leave us alone?
- DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
  I don’t have a practical choice to use iOS: my extended family uses FaceTime and iMessage instead of WhatsApp and Skype for example - and my company develops for iOS-first as well. If Apple made-good on Steve Jobs’ promise to make FaceTime an open standard and I could use it from Android devices and and PC then your argument would be stronger. Apple put us in an unfortunate position where the strength of the iOS ecosystem means that many of us don’t have a choice in phone platform to buy into - which in turn opens us up to being exploited by their App Store practices. Point is - I feel like I’m being dicked-over by Apple and the alternatives are just not feasible. Responses like “Just buy two phones lol” or “you still have a choice to use Android and not talk with your family at all” aren’t helpful or productive. I’m sure the same arguments would have been made with Standard Oil when anti-trust law wasn’t on the books yet: arguably consumers and companies still had a choice to not use oil: they could use coal or natural-gas. People have a choice to drive a car or they could walk or ride a horse or take a train... hopefully you see why your argument is seen as being made in bad faith. We have a choice, yes - but it isn’t a free choice. We are being coerced into making a choice by our circumstances and Apple is taking an unreasonably unfair advantage of that.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Apple put us in an unfortunate position where the strength of the iOS ecosystem means that many of us don’t have a choice in phone platform to buy into - which in turn opens us up to being exploited by their App Store practices. You don’t lay any of the blame on Google’s inability you convince people that their phones are worth buying when you can afford to do otherwise?
    - 6y ago
nodamage 6y ago
> Android devices are more than capable to hold their own against Apple's offerings nowadays and I haven't heard anyone complain about viruses and malware in like five years now. Of course part of the reason for this is because Google put in a bunch of scary warnings when you try to install 3rd party apps, and Epic is so unhappy with these warnings making it difficult to distribute Fortnite outside of the Play Store that they decided to sue Google too.
- scarface74 6y ago
  It’s not like the Fortnite installer had any vulnerabilities.... https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vulnerability-leads-to-googleepic-games-spat/?amp=1 https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vu...

by tingol 6y ago

52-6F-62 6y ago

One of the reasons I bought an iPhone is because there are no vectors for arbitrary software installation.

gameswithgo 6y ago
Maybe one day an app you depend on will be made no longer allowed by apple's changing policies and then you will get it. shrug
- simonh 6y ago
  Maybe one day the sky will fall on all our heads. But to your point, sure if an Android phone does the job better for me then I'd buy one. Right now they don't and one of the reasons is the different development and distribution model.
- 52-6F-62 6y ago
  I didn't think this current debate was caused by Apple changing policies, but to actually force Apple to change policies.
  - jasonlotito 6y ago
    At the very least, to play fair. They aren't even being honest when they say everyone gets the same deal on the App Store. We know this isn't true.
    - 52-6F-62 6y ago
      A discussion about rates/App Store contracts seems like a different discussion—and one I'm all for. But I personally would not like having the system I bought as a phone suddenly change in function allowing side-loaded software. (Similar to how I'm not happy that, in time, the PC-controlled Oculus hardware I've owned for several years will soon be useless without an FB account.)
      - lukeschlather 6y ago
        > But I personally would not like having the system I bought as a phone suddenly change in function allowing side-loaded software. This is exactly the problem. Apple can and does routinely change the functioning of their phones, and if you prefer the old functionality you have no recourse, because Apple contractually forbids you from installing software of your choosing.
        52-6F-62 6y ago
        My phone hasn’t changed in function. I’m not sure what you’re getting at. They don’t contractually forbid me from anything I haven’t agreed with by buying this device. I bought an iPhone specifically because it is locked down and simple.
fauigerzigerk 6y ago
The only vector would be you.
tingol 6y ago
What are the vectors on android?
X6S1x6Okd1st 6y ago
Are you concerned about third parties gaining access to your iPhone and installing software you don't want?
- dodobirdlord 6y ago
  Not OP, but of course. This is a realistic threat when traveling internationally and passing through customs. In most countries, if border security agents want to walk off with your phone for a while you can't refuse. Many organizations have a "devices that enter China stay in China" policy for exactly this reason.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Yes??? https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vulnerability-leads-to-googleepic-games-spat/?amp=1 https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vu...
stingraycharles 6y ago
Then you wouldn’t install third-party App stores and just use only Apple’s. The choice would be yours. Right now we don’t have a choice, and that is a problem. I fail to see why people think this is such a problem on this forum. It’s as people think all hell and doom breaks lose if, god forbid, developers are able to distribute apps themselves.
- dodobirdlord 6y ago
  > Right now we don’t have a choice, and that is a problem. It may be a problem to you, but for other people it's a feature. Some people have more involved threat models than you are keeping in mind. They don't want their device to be able to run arbitrary code or unsigned code. Having this feature but having a toggle to turn it off defeats the purpose. Maybe you disagree, but HN is shockingly flippant about dismissing this extremely legitimate security concern, and comments like this are a perfect example.
  - Dayshine 6y ago
    Uh, isn't this was Enterprise registered iPhones are for? I was under the impression Apple are perfectly happy to charge you a ton to be able to have group policy style control over Apple devices. Which would obvious include locking that particular feature down.
    - lukeschlather 6y ago
      Well, and that's kind of an extension of this. Real security where you own the phone and the software for it is a premium feature only available to people who can pay <ask for quote.>
stale2002 6y ago
Ok, so then don't install other app stores on your phone. Is that really so difficult for you? Why do you need to prevent me from installing other apps stores, when you can just not do that yourself.
failuser 6y ago
No intentional user-facing arbitrary software installation vectors. Safari, WhatsApp or whatever you use will serve that role whether they were designed to or not.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

simonh 6y ago

If Android can hold its own then there is no monopoly. If they don’t want to use the App Store, don’t get an iPhone. It’s that simple. A monopoly is when customers have no choice, but in smartphones with the ability to run apps, they clearly do. I like my choice and so do a lot of other people, why can’t you just leave us alone?

DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
I don’t have a practical choice to use iOS: my extended family uses FaceTime and iMessage instead of WhatsApp and Skype for example - and my company develops for iOS-first as well. If Apple made-good on Steve Jobs’ promise to make FaceTime an open standard and I could use it from Android devices and and PC then your argument would be stronger. Apple put us in an unfortunate position where the strength of the iOS ecosystem means that many of us don’t have a choice in phone platform to buy into - which in turn opens us up to being exploited by their App Store practices. Point is - I feel like I’m being dicked-over by Apple and the alternatives are just not feasible. Responses like “Just buy two phones lol” or “you still have a choice to use Android and not talk with your family at all” aren’t helpful or productive. I’m sure the same arguments would have been made with Standard Oil when anti-trust law wasn’t on the books yet: arguably consumers and companies still had a choice to not use oil: they could use coal or natural-gas. People have a choice to drive a car or they could walk or ride a horse or take a train... hopefully you see why your argument is seen as being made in bad faith. We have a choice, yes - but it isn’t a free choice. We are being coerced into making a choice by our circumstances and Apple is taking an unreasonably unfair advantage of that.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Apple put us in an unfortunate position where the strength of the iOS ecosystem means that many of us don’t have a choice in phone platform to buy into - which in turn opens us up to being exploited by their App Store practices. You don’t lay any of the blame on Google’s inability you convince people that their phones are worth buying when you can afford to do otherwise?
  - 6y ago

nodamage 6y ago

> Android devices are more than capable to hold their own against Apple's offerings nowadays and I haven't heard anyone complain about viruses and malware in like five years now. Of course part of the reason for this is because Google put in a bunch of scary warnings when you try to install 3rd party apps, and Epic is so unhappy with these warnings making it difficult to distribute Fortnite outside of the Play Store that they decided to sue Google too.

scarface74 6y ago
It’s not like the Fortnite installer had any vulnerabilities.... https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vulnerability-leads-to-googleepic-games-spat/?amp=1 https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vu...