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> Do you have concrete experience for that? Yes. > NVIDIA driver updates (or kernel updates while using nvidia) - caused black screen... I dumped nvidia... th

> Do you have concrete experience for that? Yes. > NVIDIA driver updates (or kernel updates while using nvidia) - caused black screen... I dumped nvidia... these are due to crappy nvidia. This is a legitimate dispute and I'm not really counting it because as much as I think Linux should have a stable driver ABI, NVidia are being needlessly obtuse. > Ubuntu deciding to remove old libraries/apps that are not maintained. That's fixed via docker or just keeping an old version. Which is not a simple task. Why can't keeping old software be simple? It is in sane operating systems. Hell, even Linux can do it right, as AppImage proves, but the Linux Desktop community is so hell bent on making everything as complicated as possible that they pretty much ignore AppImage. > Major version upgrades (ubuntu 18 to 20) - here I just re-install and it's expected, I wouldn't upgrade windows 7 to 10 either... Ubuntu LTS receives 5 years of support, but most new software will not be backported to the repository for anywhere close to that long in my experience and instead you're getting about 2 years. Windows 7 was supported for nearly 11 years and it was rare new software didn't support it for that entire time. > you only get annoyed by those if you are a power user anyway Precisely. Linux Desktop people seem to think that targeting people who only need a web kiosk is somehow going to make them popular, but if people who actually know about and need the features of an actual desktop computer don't like it why would they ever recommend it to anyone?

adriancr 6y ago
> Yes. Care to share?, I'm curious :) > Which is not a simple task. Why can't keeping old software be simple? It is in sane operating systems. Hell, even Linux can do it right, as AppImage proves, but the Linux Desktop community is so hell bent on making everything as complicated as possible that they pretty much ignore AppImage. Resources make it complicated (time/money/...). I wouldn't maintain another person's library that he doesn't bother with. > Windows 7 was supported for nearly 11 years and it was rare new software didn't support it for that entire time. You are comparing a paid product with something free. For better or worse new software works on ubuntu older versions as well, but you need to compile it or work to get it there. Or just upgrade. I assume you can also switch to Red Hat which have paid support. > Precisely. Linux Desktop people seem to think that targeting people who only need a web kiosk is somehow going to make them popular, but if people who actually know about and need the features of an actual desktop computer don't like it why would they ever recommend it to anyone? My point there was if you are a power user you should be able to get it working, it's a skill that's very good to have. Other less skilled people don't hit it by virtue of not playing around. The 'Linux Desktop' people that you say are targeting things for better or worse put in time to build free products, if you don't like some switch to others or contribute.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  > The 'Linux Desktop' people that you say are targeting things for better or worse put in time to build free products, if you don't like some switch to others or contribute. I did. I used to run Linux on 4/5 of my desktops and now that is down to 1/5, and only because I haven't turned that one on in 6 months. My complaints are made no less invalid by that. Contributing to Linux Desktop is, in my considered opinion, a waste of time. The community is so dead set on doing things in the most convoluted and complicated ways possible that there is no hope for reasonable ideas.
  - adriancr 6y ago
    what do you use now then and how happy are you with that? I for one am the reverse, tried recently using windows and it just got in the way, plus felt like I was being spied on like old times under communism... Tried last year MacOS/macbook but I can't even move the titlebar to the right... Plus Apple restricting everything I can do... Plus Macbook couldn't install Linux on it, crappy keyboard, overheating, easiest return I ever did. Otherwise Linux since forever.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
      I used Lubuntu. I tried many other distros, probably several you never heard of, but Lubuntu was consistently the most tolerable. I'm pretty much Windows-only at this point. It definitely has its flaws, and it is definitely getting worse as the new "lets make everything suck as bad as the web" culture takes hold, but I still find that it works with me much more often than against me which is more than I can say for the way Linux desktops work.
rglullis 6y ago
> why would they ever recommend it to anyone? It is not a matter of recommending Linux or *BSD or anything else. It is just a matter of refusing to give in to closed software on the grounds of "convenience". I don't go around telling people what type of software they should use, but I do expect technical people and the common developer to understand what a terrible trade-off they are making when they choose proprietary desktop. I feel hard to sympathize with those that complain about the abuse and developer hostility from Apple. They sold their souls to the devil for cheap and are now trying to bargain their way out of it?
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  Maybe you could give them the benefit of the doubt that they know exactly the trade-off they were making, and perhaps even wish they didn't have to go the route they did, but the alternative just isn't there yet?
  - rglullis 6y ago
    If the alternative is not there yet and you are not helping build it, it is even worse! I don't mind people that tell me they need, e.g, Photoshop to do their work. I do mind the fact that they don't contribute to any alternative. Just paying the subscription to Adobe and shrugging it off, instead of hedging and contributing to the alternatives? Shame on them. Imagine 10% of every Adobe customer donating 10% annually of what they pay to Adobe to contribute to the development of an open alternative, we'd have hundreds of millions of dollars. How long would it take until Adobe would be no longer needed or at least playing against a more leveled field? Even more in the case of the stereotypical web developer that uses a Macbook when every other tool they used is FOSS. Puts $2k on a laptop that you will only cripple you and work against you and still think this is somehow good "User Experience"? To me this is like failing an IQ test.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
      > If the alternative is not there yet and you are not helping build it, it is even worse! I have seen what happens when people try to help. At best they are ignored. As I've said before, it is my considered opinion that the community is simply not interested in making things better. I would be totally ok with that if they weren't also evengelical. And also, there's only so much time in the day, some of us have higher priorities than building replacement software for stuff that already exists.
m463 6y ago
> > Ubuntu deciding to remove old libraries/apps that are not maintained. That's fixed via docker or just keeping an old version. > Which is not a simple task. Why can't keeping old software be simple? It is in sane operating systems. Hell, even Linux can do it right, I've wondered about these things, and I think the true reason is that Linux is a source-compatible operating system. Other OS's solve this by the boring and painstaking task of assuring binary interfaces are stable and remain working. They usually do this by hiring and paying people to do it. Linux does all compatibility at the source level, and binary compatibility is a little hit or miss. The common way to fix it is to recompile a lot of stuff. As one example, I installed ubuntu 18.04 and it should be Long Term Stability.... but I did an apt-get update && apt-get upgrade and upgraded from a 4.x kernel to a 5.x kernel. I recall all the kernel dump stuff broke

adriancr 6y ago

> Yes. Care to share?, I'm curious :) > Which is not a simple task. Why can't keeping old software be simple? It is in sane operating systems. Hell, even Linux can do it right, as AppImage proves, but the Linux Desktop community is so hell bent on making everything as complicated as possible that they pretty much ignore AppImage. Resources make it complicated (time/money/...). I wouldn't maintain another person's library that he doesn't bother with. > Windows 7 was supported for nearly 11 years and it was rare new software didn't support it for that entire time. You are comparing a paid product with something free. For better or worse new software works on ubuntu older versions as well, but you need to compile it or work to get it there. Or just upgrade. I assume you can also switch to Red Hat which have paid support. > Precisely. Linux Desktop people seem to think that targeting people who only need a web kiosk is somehow going to make them popular, but if people who actually know about and need the features of an actual desktop computer don't like it why would they ever recommend it to anyone? My point there was if you are a power user you should be able to get it working, it's a skill that's very good to have. Other less skilled people don't hit it by virtue of not playing around. The 'Linux Desktop' people that you say are targeting things for better or worse put in time to build free products, if you don't like some switch to others or contribute.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
> The 'Linux Desktop' people that you say are targeting things for better or worse put in time to build free products, if you don't like some switch to others or contribute. I did. I used to run Linux on 4/5 of my desktops and now that is down to 1/5, and only because I haven't turned that one on in 6 months. My complaints are made no less invalid by that. Contributing to Linux Desktop is, in my considered opinion, a waste of time. The community is so dead set on doing things in the most convoluted and complicated ways possible that there is no hope for reasonable ideas.
- adriancr 6y ago
  what do you use now then and how happy are you with that? I for one am the reverse, tried recently using windows and it just got in the way, plus felt like I was being spied on like old times under communism... Tried last year MacOS/macbook but I can't even move the titlebar to the right... Plus Apple restricting everything I can do... Plus Macbook couldn't install Linux on it, crappy keyboard, overheating, easiest return I ever did. Otherwise Linux since forever.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    I used Lubuntu. I tried many other distros, probably several you never heard of, but Lubuntu was consistently the most tolerable. I'm pretty much Windows-only at this point. It definitely has its flaws, and it is definitely getting worse as the new "lets make everything suck as bad as the web" culture takes hold, but I still find that it works with me much more often than against me which is more than I can say for the way Linux desktops work.

rglullis 6y ago

> why would they ever recommend it to anyone? It is not a matter of recommending Linux or *BSD or anything else. It is just a matter of refusing to give in to closed software on the grounds of "convenience". I don't go around telling people what type of software they should use, but I do expect technical people and the common developer to understand what a terrible trade-off they are making when they choose proprietary desktop. I feel hard to sympathize with those that complain about the abuse and developer hostility from Apple. They sold their souls to the devil for cheap and are now trying to bargain their way out of it?

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
Maybe you could give them the benefit of the doubt that they know exactly the trade-off they were making, and perhaps even wish they didn't have to go the route they did, but the alternative just isn't there yet?
- rglullis 6y ago
  If the alternative is not there yet and you are not helping build it, it is even worse! I don't mind people that tell me they need, e.g, Photoshop to do their work. I do mind the fact that they don't contribute to any alternative. Just paying the subscription to Adobe and shrugging it off, instead of hedging and contributing to the alternatives? Shame on them. Imagine 10% of every Adobe customer donating 10% annually of what they pay to Adobe to contribute to the development of an open alternative, we'd have hundreds of millions of dollars. How long would it take until Adobe would be no longer needed or at least playing against a more leveled field? Even more in the case of the stereotypical web developer that uses a Macbook when every other tool they used is FOSS. Puts $2k on a laptop that you will only cripple you and work against you and still think this is somehow good "User Experience"? To me this is like failing an IQ test.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    > If the alternative is not there yet and you are not helping build it, it is even worse! I have seen what happens when people try to help. At best they are ignored. As I've said before, it is my considered opinion that the community is simply not interested in making things better. I would be totally ok with that if they weren't also evengelical. And also, there's only so much time in the day, some of us have higher priorities than building replacement software for stuff that already exists.

m463 6y ago

> > Ubuntu deciding to remove old libraries/apps that are not maintained. That's fixed via docker or just keeping an old version. > Which is not a simple task. Why can't keeping old software be simple? It is in sane operating systems. Hell, even Linux can do it right, I've wondered about these things, and I think the true reason is that Linux is a source-compatible operating system. Other OS's solve this by the boring and painstaking task of assuring binary interfaces are stable and remain working. They usually do this by hiring and paying people to do it. Linux does all compatibility at the source level, and binary compatibility is a little hit or miss. The common way to fix it is to recompile a lot of stuff. As one example, I installed ubuntu 18.04 and it should be Long Term Stability.... but I did an apt-get update && apt-get upgrade and upgraded from a 4.x kernel to a 5.x kernel. I recall all the kernel dump stuff broke