7 ms·

Depressing.

BrianOnHN 6y ago
I'm sure this won't be a popular comment, but based on the descriptions in the article, the flat earthers seem very similar to the Trump supporters I know (family, not by choice). The clear distinction is the absolute unwillingness to listen logic without screaming what-a-about conspiracy A, or conspiracy B, or C. Or the classic "your just a socialist" inbetween talking about their social security and medicare benefits. There's clearly a segment of the population that has the inability to compute simple logic without triggering a fight/flight/amygdala response. I used to think education was the problem. But I'm starting to think this inability to control their emotional response when hearing anything that conflicts with their "belief system" is the hack that various organizations leverage to build a cult-like following. Edit: thanks for all the fanfare(sarcasm towards the downvotes), I think that it proves my point.
- RobRivera 6y ago
  >Trump supporters I know (family, not by choice) What is the implication here? Is it bad to have friends who are Trump supporters? EDIT: I see my point of political bias proven, complete with intolerance, rationalization of said intolerance, gross assumptions, and overall it leaves me disappointed that the HN crowd allows this.
  - ideals 6y ago
    I judge people (not solely) based on who they choose to associate with, so for me ya it is bad. To put it more bluntly, if you surround yourself with shitty people, I'll assume you're a shitty person.
    - sunopener 6y ago
      You surround yourself with 7.8 billion people who shit nearly every day. To put it bluntly, you are judging yourself when you take yourself to be judging others, you claim an excuse that associating with others leads to your own self-admitted "badness"... You judge yourself, and rather than taking sentence with those aspects within, you externalize it and make assumptions based upon comparisons of your ideal shitty person, which deep down we both know that we are our own worst critics. This only leads down one road, self-annihilatory behavior. Learn to love yourself completely, you are not lacking, and to be honest, you taking yourself to be one that thinks of others or yourself as a shitty person is one of the most lovable parts about you.
      - trumpersHateMe 6y ago
        Does this reply have any coherence at all or is it just me? It reads very similar to a response I received from the owners of a fishing website that I used to frequent when I questioned them about BLM.
        sunopener 6y ago
        "It has been stated that a text coheres only if the world around is also coherent." Further reading: https://www.lhn.uni-hamburg.de/node/69.html https://www.lhn.uni-hamburg.de/node/69.html That you'd ask yourself if this reply is coherent is a function of your own mind seeking meaning from what appears to be unresolved processing of a response you received from the owners of a phishing website. Given you used to frequent said site and received a text you deem similar when questioning them about BLM, is understandable, given that the narratives and subtopics generated are still in flux, history is continuing to be written and the echos of the past keep crowning into our collective reality by the mere attention placed upon them. A world where one loves themselves completely and thoroughly is often seen as incoherent due to the limitations one finds themselves confined in--usually in the form of narratives, beliefs, values aka the "already dead driftwood" of the mind--by taking themselves to be other than what they are, the past self in cahoots with the present self vying for the spotlight of consciousness, really just another form of communication, really. Where it breaks down and a text seems incoherent is when such attention is placed upon a text... perhaps you've been looking for incoherence ever since you received that response on that website you spoke of and couldn't bear the mind to let it go, so you carry it with you everywhere, perhaps not realizing that this gets triggered every time a text taps on the walls of your own self constructed limitations--in this case it's one of inner reflection and unconditional love for oneself in a world where everyone and everything is interconnected. That or you can call me a bumbling idiot. May you be Loved. <3
        trumpersHateMe 6y ago
        So, if I understand this right, your love for yourself is so coherent that these ramblings are synonymous with coherence in your mind. In other words, your understanding of coherence is that it is subjective. Is that right?
  - BrianOnHN 6y ago
    What I'm saying is I appreciate intelligent discourse from the people I choose to surround myself with. I'd love to hear from a credible left-leaning person about an example of intelligent discourse they had with a trump-supporter(not just a conservative, there's a difference). This morning, I walked pass a Trump 2020 campaign flag with the slogan "No more bullshit." What kind of intelligence went into displaying that kind of message in public?
  - shadowgovt 6y ago
    One can choose friends, and when one chooses some friends, it casts strong suspicions on one's character. This is not new to human behavior or social structure.
  - trumpersHateMe 6y ago
    > EDIT: I see my point of political bias proven, complete with intolerance, rationalization of said intolerance, gross assumptions, and overall it leaves me disappointed that the HN crowd allows this I would expect such a strong statement like this to be better explained. What has confirmed what? What is the logic behind your conclusion? Please share.
- rgoulter 6y ago
  > But I'm starting to think this inability to control their emotional response when hearing anything that conflicts with their "belief system" is the hack that various organizations leverage to build a cult-like following. Jonathan Haidt describes this as "morality binds and blinds". The full quote being: "Morality binds and blinds. It binds us into ideological teams that fight each other as though the fate of the world depended on our side winning each battle. It blinds us to the fact that each team is composed of good people who have something important to say." I also like Haidt's interpretation of Hume's "reason is a slave to the passions". Haidt descibes logical thinking as like a press secretary of emotion; with as much power over emotion as a rider has over an elephant. - The elephant goes where it wants to.
  - BrianOnHN 6y ago
    > each team is composed of good people who have something important to say This is what makes this "abuse of the amygdala" a hack. The flat-earthers/trump-supporters don't have anything "important" to say unless you want to give credit to their conspiracies. That said, they are indeed screaming loud and clear that there is a significantly large segment of people with certain mental dispositions that are being abused by leaders in the top ranks of our government and society.
    - mattmanser 6y ago
      Well, they actually do, and that's the problem. And I say that as someone who thinks Trump is an utter arse. For example, they're not keen on a huge influx of foreigners from a different culture. Maybe you're dismissive of that, but it's because you're not listening. Or, for example, they want to keep their jobs, e.g. coal miners. Maybe you're dismissive of that, but it's because you're not listening. Or, for example, they're tired of politicians saying they'll do something but then nothing actually happening. Mainly because there are downsides to that action, e.g. because mass immigration now drives growth due to falling birth rates, there are no real attempts to stop it. Maybe you're dismissive of that, but it's because you're not listening. Look at what happened recently in most western countries and it comes across as rigged. Mass immigration even though the population opposes it, no consequences for bankers in the 2008 crash, widening wealth inequality, falling wages when you take account of inflation. And America has really weird political dynasties, Kennedys, Bushes, Clintons. It's supposed to be a democracy and yet somehow you almost have feudal-esque ruler inheritance. You can see why Trump's anti-establishment message worked.
- dsr_ 6y ago
  Specifically, the QAnon cultists are just like Flat Earthers.
  - BrianOnHN 6y ago
    Thankfully, I haven't known one of those since he got run out of the state for committing loan fraud. He seemed like an intelligent guy. Was even interested in startups. Then he started asking me about the "intellectual dark web." I was like, I know quite a bit about computers and I think I would've heard if there really was any legitimate intellect only accessible on the dark web. That was the last I remember of him besides that he committed fraud and moved back to his parents house in Wisconsin.
- eurekin 6y ago
  This actually would explain a lot from my environment as well. Different country, different parties and issues, but that triggered responses - same story
  - BrianOnHN 6y ago
    If only "Thinking fast and slow" (kahneman) was distilled into something easier to swallow. These concepts aren't new. They're also universal truths about human nature. Everyone wants to think that they're in control, at least in their head. But until they come to terms with the fact that they are not in control, they will continue to do detriment to themselves and others. See "alcoholics anonymous" (AA) for evidence of this.
    - eurekin 6y ago
      Totally on the same page with you on that one. I always thought it's a natural thing: once everybody matures they'll stop their knee jerk, emotional responses and only allow those well thought out, analytical ones. It seems though, there is an opposing and totally intentional force to that. Somehow I feel that removing the emotional reactions could lead to collapse of some bigger social structures, cause it seems that this is the main glue that holds them together

Depressing.

I'm sure this won't be a popular comment, but based on the descriptions in the article, the flat earthers seem very similar to the Trump supporters I know (family, not by choice). The clear distinction is the absolute unwillingness to listen logic without screaming what-a-about conspiracy A, or conspiracy B, or C. Or the classic "your just a socialist" inbetween talking about their social security and medicare benefits. There's clearly a segment of the population that has the inability to compute simple logic without triggering a fight/flight/amygdala response. I used to think education was the problem. But I'm starting to think this inability to control their emotional response when hearing anything that conflicts with their "belief system" is the hack that various organizations leverage to build a cult-like following. Edit: thanks for all the fanfare(sarcasm towards the downvotes), I think that it proves my point.

RobRivera 6y ago
>Trump supporters I know (family, not by choice) What is the implication here? Is it bad to have friends who are Trump supporters? EDIT: I see my point of political bias proven, complete with intolerance, rationalization of said intolerance, gross assumptions, and overall it leaves me disappointed that the HN crowd allows this.
- ideals 6y ago
  I judge people (not solely) based on who they choose to associate with, so for me ya it is bad. To put it more bluntly, if you surround yourself with shitty people, I'll assume you're a shitty person.
  - sunopener 6y ago
    You surround yourself with 7.8 billion people who shit nearly every day. To put it bluntly, you are judging yourself when you take yourself to be judging others, you claim an excuse that associating with others leads to your own self-admitted "badness"... You judge yourself, and rather than taking sentence with those aspects within, you externalize it and make assumptions based upon comparisons of your ideal shitty person, which deep down we both know that we are our own worst critics. This only leads down one road, self-annihilatory behavior. Learn to love yourself completely, you are not lacking, and to be honest, you taking yourself to be one that thinks of others or yourself as a shitty person is one of the most lovable parts about you.
    - trumpersHateMe 6y ago
      Does this reply have any coherence at all or is it just me? It reads very similar to a response I received from the owners of a fishing website that I used to frequent when I questioned them about BLM.
      - sunopener 6y ago
        "It has been stated that a text coheres only if the world around is also coherent." Further reading: https://www.lhn.uni-hamburg.de/node/69.html https://www.lhn.uni-hamburg.de/node/69.html That you'd ask yourself if this reply is coherent is a function of your own mind seeking meaning from what appears to be unresolved processing of a response you received from the owners of a phishing website. Given you used to frequent said site and received a text you deem similar when questioning them about BLM, is understandable, given that the narratives and subtopics generated are still in flux, history is continuing to be written and the echos of the past keep crowning into our collective reality by the mere attention placed upon them. A world where one loves themselves completely and thoroughly is often seen as incoherent due to the limitations one finds themselves confined in--usually in the form of narratives, beliefs, values aka the "already dead driftwood" of the mind--by taking themselves to be other than what they are, the past self in cahoots with the present self vying for the spotlight of consciousness, really just another form of communication, really. Where it breaks down and a text seems incoherent is when such attention is placed upon a text... perhaps you've been looking for incoherence ever since you received that response on that website you spoke of and couldn't bear the mind to let it go, so you carry it with you everywhere, perhaps not realizing that this gets triggered every time a text taps on the walls of your own self constructed limitations--in this case it's one of inner reflection and unconditional love for oneself in a world where everyone and everything is interconnected. That or you can call me a bumbling idiot. May you be Loved. <3
        trumpersHateMe 6y ago
        So, if I understand this right, your love for yourself is so coherent that these ramblings are synonymous with coherence in your mind. In other words, your understanding of coherence is that it is subjective. Is that right?
- BrianOnHN 6y ago
  What I'm saying is I appreciate intelligent discourse from the people I choose to surround myself with. I'd love to hear from a credible left-leaning person about an example of intelligent discourse they had with a trump-supporter(not just a conservative, there's a difference). This morning, I walked pass a Trump 2020 campaign flag with the slogan "No more bullshit." What kind of intelligence went into displaying that kind of message in public?
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  One can choose friends, and when one chooses some friends, it casts strong suspicions on one's character. This is not new to human behavior or social structure.
- trumpersHateMe 6y ago
  > EDIT: I see my point of political bias proven, complete with intolerance, rationalization of said intolerance, gross assumptions, and overall it leaves me disappointed that the HN crowd allows this I would expect such a strong statement like this to be better explained. What has confirmed what? What is the logic behind your conclusion? Please share.
rgoulter 6y ago
> But I'm starting to think this inability to control their emotional response when hearing anything that conflicts with their "belief system" is the hack that various organizations leverage to build a cult-like following. Jonathan Haidt describes this as "morality binds and blinds". The full quote being: "Morality binds and blinds. It binds us into ideological teams that fight each other as though the fate of the world depended on our side winning each battle. It blinds us to the fact that each team is composed of good people who have something important to say." I also like Haidt's interpretation of Hume's "reason is a slave to the passions". Haidt descibes logical thinking as like a press secretary of emotion; with as much power over emotion as a rider has over an elephant. - The elephant goes where it wants to.
- BrianOnHN 6y ago
  > each team is composed of good people who have something important to say This is what makes this "abuse of the amygdala" a hack. The flat-earthers/trump-supporters don't have anything "important" to say unless you want to give credit to their conspiracies. That said, they are indeed screaming loud and clear that there is a significantly large segment of people with certain mental dispositions that are being abused by leaders in the top ranks of our government and society.
  - mattmanser 6y ago
    Well, they actually do, and that's the problem. And I say that as someone who thinks Trump is an utter arse. For example, they're not keen on a huge influx of foreigners from a different culture. Maybe you're dismissive of that, but it's because you're not listening. Or, for example, they want to keep their jobs, e.g. coal miners. Maybe you're dismissive of that, but it's because you're not listening. Or, for example, they're tired of politicians saying they'll do something but then nothing actually happening. Mainly because there are downsides to that action, e.g. because mass immigration now drives growth due to falling birth rates, there are no real attempts to stop it. Maybe you're dismissive of that, but it's because you're not listening. Look at what happened recently in most western countries and it comes across as rigged. Mass immigration even though the population opposes it, no consequences for bankers in the 2008 crash, widening wealth inequality, falling wages when you take account of inflation. And America has really weird political dynasties, Kennedys, Bushes, Clintons. It's supposed to be a democracy and yet somehow you almost have feudal-esque ruler inheritance. You can see why Trump's anti-establishment message worked.
dsr_ 6y ago
Specifically, the QAnon cultists are just like Flat Earthers.
- BrianOnHN 6y ago
  Thankfully, I haven't known one of those since he got run out of the state for committing loan fraud. He seemed like an intelligent guy. Was even interested in startups. Then he started asking me about the "intellectual dark web." I was like, I know quite a bit about computers and I think I would've heard if there really was any legitimate intellect only accessible on the dark web. That was the last I remember of him besides that he committed fraud and moved back to his parents house in Wisconsin.
eurekin 6y ago
This actually would explain a lot from my environment as well. Different country, different parties and issues, but that triggered responses - same story
- BrianOnHN 6y ago
  If only "Thinking fast and slow" (kahneman) was distilled into something easier to swallow. These concepts aren't new. They're also universal truths about human nature. Everyone wants to think that they're in control, at least in their head. But until they come to terms with the fact that they are not in control, they will continue to do detriment to themselves and others. See "alcoholics anonymous" (AA) for evidence of this.
  - eurekin 6y ago
    Totally on the same page with you on that one. I always thought it's a natural thing: once everybody matures they'll stop their knee jerk, emotional responses and only allow those well thought out, analytical ones. It seems though, there is an opposing and totally intentional force to that. Somehow I feel that removing the emotional reactions could lead to collapse of some bigger social structures, cause it seems that this is the main glue that holds them together