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Do you have concrete experience for that? I have only 3 things I hit: - NVIDIA driver updates (or kernel updates while using nvidia) - caused black screen...

Do you have concrete experience for that? I have only 3 things I hit: - NVIDIA driver updates (or kernel updates while using nvidia) - caused black screen... I dumped nvidia... these are due to crappy nvidia. - Ubuntu deciding to remove old libraries/apps that are not maintained. That's fixed via docker or just keeping an old version. - Major version upgrades (ubuntu 18 to 20) - here I just re-install and it's expected, I wouldn't upgrade windows 7 to 10 either... Other then this I'm not sure what you are referring to?, systemd vs sysvinit? (you only get annoyed by those if you are a power user anyway) Note: I set up automatic updates packages every day and have not hit issues.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
> Do you have concrete experience for that? Yes. > NVIDIA driver updates (or kernel updates while using nvidia) - caused black screen... I dumped nvidia... these are due to crappy nvidia. This is a legitimate dispute and I'm not really counting it because as much as I think Linux should have a stable driver ABI, NVidia are being needlessly obtuse. > Ubuntu deciding to remove old libraries/apps that are not maintained. That's fixed via docker or just keeping an old version. Which is not a simple task. Why can't keeping old software be simple? It is in sane operating systems. Hell, even Linux can do it right, as AppImage proves, but the Linux Desktop community is so hell bent on making everything as complicated as possible that they pretty much ignore AppImage. > Major version upgrades (ubuntu 18 to 20) - here I just re-install and it's expected, I wouldn't upgrade windows 7 to 10 either... Ubuntu LTS receives 5 years of support, but most new software will not be backported to the repository for anywhere close to that long in my experience and instead you're getting about 2 years. Windows 7 was supported for nearly 11 years and it was rare new software didn't support it for that entire time. > you only get annoyed by those if you are a power user anyway Precisely. Linux Desktop people seem to think that targeting people who only need a web kiosk is somehow going to make them popular, but if people who actually know about and need the features of an actual desktop computer don't like it why would they ever recommend it to anyone?
- adriancr 6y ago
  > Yes. Care to share?, I'm curious :) > Which is not a simple task. Why can't keeping old software be simple? It is in sane operating systems. Hell, even Linux can do it right, as AppImage proves, but the Linux Desktop community is so hell bent on making everything as complicated as possible that they pretty much ignore AppImage. Resources make it complicated (time/money/...). I wouldn't maintain another person's library that he doesn't bother with. > Windows 7 was supported for nearly 11 years and it was rare new software didn't support it for that entire time. You are comparing a paid product with something free. For better or worse new software works on ubuntu older versions as well, but you need to compile it or work to get it there. Or just upgrade. I assume you can also switch to Red Hat which have paid support. > Precisely. Linux Desktop people seem to think that targeting people who only need a web kiosk is somehow going to make them popular, but if people who actually know about and need the features of an actual desktop computer don't like it why would they ever recommend it to anyone? My point there was if you are a power user you should be able to get it working, it's a skill that's very good to have. Other less skilled people don't hit it by virtue of not playing around. The 'Linux Desktop' people that you say are targeting things for better or worse put in time to build free products, if you don't like some switch to others or contribute.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    > The 'Linux Desktop' people that you say are targeting things for better or worse put in time to build free products, if you don't like some switch to others or contribute. I did. I used to run Linux on 4/5 of my desktops and now that is down to 1/5, and only because I haven't turned that one on in 6 months. My complaints are made no less invalid by that. Contributing to Linux Desktop is, in my considered opinion, a waste of time. The community is so dead set on doing things in the most convoluted and complicated ways possible that there is no hope for reasonable ideas.
    - adriancr 6y ago
      what do you use now then and how happy are you with that? I for one am the reverse, tried recently using windows and it just got in the way, plus felt like I was being spied on like old times under communism... Tried last year MacOS/macbook but I can't even move the titlebar to the right... Plus Apple restricting everything I can do... Plus Macbook couldn't install Linux on it, crappy keyboard, overheating, easiest return I ever did. Otherwise Linux since forever.
quanticle 6y ago
Major version upgrades (ubuntu 18 to 20) - here I just re-install and it's expected, I wouldn't upgrade windows 7 to 10 either... Why not? I've upgraded a few Windows machines from 7 to 10, and the upgrade has gone just fine, assuming there's enough disk space for the OS to store the upgrade files before it starts the upgrade. Similarly, I've upgraded Linux boxes (both Ubuntu and Fedora) across major versions. MacOS as well. I don't know where you're getting this notion that an OS upgrade is a scary thing to do. In my experience, it's been a routine, if somewhat long process.
- adriancr 6y ago
  parents messed that up (clicked accept by mistake to a microsoft upgrade pop up when that was a thing), system no longer booted and had to reinstall... Also, I'm old, maybe things have improved but I've had upgrades wipe my hard drive due to centos anaconda bug once (centos 5 to 6) other times it just did not boot (yay using encrypted boot partition but thats on me and updating grub fixes it) Added benefit is it also forces me to check/update backups

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago

> Do you have concrete experience for that? Yes. > NVIDIA driver updates (or kernel updates while using nvidia) - caused black screen... I dumped nvidia... these are due to crappy nvidia. This is a legitimate dispute and I'm not really counting it because as much as I think Linux should have a stable driver ABI, NVidia are being needlessly obtuse. > Ubuntu deciding to remove old libraries/apps that are not maintained. That's fixed via docker or just keeping an old version. Which is not a simple task. Why can't keeping old software be simple? It is in sane operating systems. Hell, even Linux can do it right, as AppImage proves, but the Linux Desktop community is so hell bent on making everything as complicated as possible that they pretty much ignore AppImage. > Major version upgrades (ubuntu 18 to 20) - here I just re-install and it's expected, I wouldn't upgrade windows 7 to 10 either... Ubuntu LTS receives 5 years of support, but most new software will not be backported to the repository for anywhere close to that long in my experience and instead you're getting about 2 years. Windows 7 was supported for nearly 11 years and it was rare new software didn't support it for that entire time. > you only get annoyed by those if you are a power user anyway Precisely. Linux Desktop people seem to think that targeting people who only need a web kiosk is somehow going to make them popular, but if people who actually know about and need the features of an actual desktop computer don't like it why would they ever recommend it to anyone?

adriancr 6y ago
> Yes. Care to share?, I'm curious :) > Which is not a simple task. Why can't keeping old software be simple? It is in sane operating systems. Hell, even Linux can do it right, as AppImage proves, but the Linux Desktop community is so hell bent on making everything as complicated as possible that they pretty much ignore AppImage. Resources make it complicated (time/money/...). I wouldn't maintain another person's library that he doesn't bother with. > Windows 7 was supported for nearly 11 years and it was rare new software didn't support it for that entire time. You are comparing a paid product with something free. For better or worse new software works on ubuntu older versions as well, but you need to compile it or work to get it there. Or just upgrade. I assume you can also switch to Red Hat which have paid support. > Precisely. Linux Desktop people seem to think that targeting people who only need a web kiosk is somehow going to make them popular, but if people who actually know about and need the features of an actual desktop computer don't like it why would they ever recommend it to anyone? My point there was if you are a power user you should be able to get it working, it's a skill that's very good to have. Other less skilled people don't hit it by virtue of not playing around. The 'Linux Desktop' people that you say are targeting things for better or worse put in time to build free products, if you don't like some switch to others or contribute.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  > The 'Linux Desktop' people that you say are targeting things for better or worse put in time to build free products, if you don't like some switch to others or contribute. I did. I used to run Linux on 4/5 of my desktops and now that is down to 1/5, and only because I haven't turned that one on in 6 months. My complaints are made no less invalid by that. Contributing to Linux Desktop is, in my considered opinion, a waste of time. The community is so dead set on doing things in the most convoluted and complicated ways possible that there is no hope for reasonable ideas.
  - adriancr 6y ago
    what do you use now then and how happy are you with that? I for one am the reverse, tried recently using windows and it just got in the way, plus felt like I was being spied on like old times under communism... Tried last year MacOS/macbook but I can't even move the titlebar to the right... Plus Apple restricting everything I can do... Plus Macbook couldn't install Linux on it, crappy keyboard, overheating, easiest return I ever did. Otherwise Linux since forever.

quanticle 6y ago

Major version upgrades (ubuntu 18 to 20) - here I just re-install and it's expected, I wouldn't upgrade windows 7 to 10 either... Why not? I've upgraded a few Windows machines from 7 to 10, and the upgrade has gone just fine, assuming there's enough disk space for the OS to store the upgrade files before it starts the upgrade. Similarly, I've upgraded Linux boxes (both Ubuntu and Fedora) across major versions. MacOS as well. I don't know where you're getting this notion that an OS upgrade is a scary thing to do. In my experience, it's been a routine, if somewhat long process.

adriancr 6y ago
parents messed that up (clicked accept by mistake to a microsoft upgrade pop up when that was a thing), system no longer booted and had to reinstall... Also, I'm old, maybe things have improved but I've had upgrades wipe my hard drive due to centos anaconda bug once (centos 5 to 6) other times it just did not boot (yay using encrypted boot partition but thats on me and updating grub fixes it) Added benefit is it also forces me to check/update backups