7 ms·

This reads like you don't see individuals, you just see representatives of racial and gender groups. That's the same vibe I get from racists and sexists. What

This reads like you don't see individuals, you just see representatives of racial and gender groups. That's the same vibe I get from racists and sexists. What is the fundamental difference between these essentialising, group-identity-based views?

dleslie 6y ago
> That's the same vibe I get from racists and sexists. The vibe you're detecting is prejudice. They are exhibiting prejudice against individuals on the basis of immutable traits like gender and ethnicity.
- bahlhala 6y ago
  I think of it as we can see its not right just now and there are no other idea on the table. I may just be racist or sexist though.. however i dont know why i would give a shit if that was the case?
  - dleslie 6y ago
    It's possible to be self-aware of one's own faults and want to change, but still exhibit the errant behaviour.
    - bahlhala 6y ago
      you are not explaining why i would care though? and i have not seen a single alternative posted by anyone here, so all the argumnts against seem rather hollow and just self serving. blocking making playing field fairer as you wont be the one to benefit from the increased fairness. I also think that people are missing the point that the entire work environment is tuned to a specific group of people.. which is not healthy. that specific group of people are not going to actively de-tune their environment for potential future hires that they dont even have metrics to measure how tuned they are. the only solution i can see is to get those other people in, see what need changing, change that.. wait a full generation and re-evaluate. How do propose getting more diversity without some kind of support or appreciation of the value of the under represented? and to those thinking of themselves before the wider picture this will always seem "unfair". If you were watching over some kids and you had not noticed but for an hour one kid had been bullying other kids to achieve a huge lead over them in the game they were playing. so you step and stop the bullying.. great. but where is the incentive for the other kids to keep playing together if the historical effects of the bullying are not addressed?
      - dleslie 6y ago
        > you are not explaining why i would care though? Because many people endeavour to be better people because they care about other people. > How do propose getting more diversity without some kind of support or appreciation of the value of the under represented? You could improve diversity without appreciating their value, as well; following proscribed formulas to balance quotas doesn't guarantee that those applying the formula are going to reform their views. I'd improve diversity by dismantling systemic barriers; like unequal access to education, which must including access to after-school support, quality food, and so on. > but where is the incentive for the other kids to keep playing together if the historical effects of the bullying are not addressed? Because they are kids, and many kids are quick to forgive and forge new relationships.
bahlhala 6y ago
i get where you are coming from.. but the problem is the lack of a better option, this is not a perfect solution. as i said elswhere in comments - i saw my dad being respected for an ability to do stuff with his computer (computers were not generally used in offices etc. at the time). my childs mind wanted to get some of that respect.. so i invested time learning and playing with computers. I saw white dudes on tv doing everything - they were all the good guys (and even most of the bad guys) i grew up thinking i could do anything. i would love to be able to say the same for my daughter.
- dleslie 6y ago
  I suspect your kids will be fine as long as they have a supportive and conscientious parent, as you seem to be.
- throwaway_35345 6y ago
  > i would love to be able to say the same for my daughter Are you going to tell her how you did it? This seems like a real ends-justify-the-means dilema. I think what you're advocating for is fundamentally immoral. I accept it probably achieves the result we want, but we mustn't do it because it's wrong.
  - dleslie 6y ago
    What is immoral about educating your children how to achieve the abilities you exhibit? Or am I misreading; what, specifically, do you think is immoral here? Perhaps I'm confused.
    - throwaway_35345 6y ago
      When you said > i would love to be able to say the same for my daughter. I thought you were expressing support for no longer hiring white men, which is what the thread was about? I think that's immoral.
      - dleslie 6y ago

dleslie 6y ago

> That's the same vibe I get from racists and sexists. The vibe you're detecting is prejudice. They are exhibiting prejudice against individuals on the basis of immutable traits like gender and ethnicity.

bahlhala 6y ago
I think of it as we can see its not right just now and there are no other idea on the table. I may just be racist or sexist though.. however i dont know why i would give a shit if that was the case?
- dleslie 6y ago
  It's possible to be self-aware of one's own faults and want to change, but still exhibit the errant behaviour.
  - bahlhala 6y ago
    you are not explaining why i would care though? and i have not seen a single alternative posted by anyone here, so all the argumnts against seem rather hollow and just self serving. blocking making playing field fairer as you wont be the one to benefit from the increased fairness. I also think that people are missing the point that the entire work environment is tuned to a specific group of people.. which is not healthy. that specific group of people are not going to actively de-tune their environment for potential future hires that they dont even have metrics to measure how tuned they are. the only solution i can see is to get those other people in, see what need changing, change that.. wait a full generation and re-evaluate. How do propose getting more diversity without some kind of support or appreciation of the value of the under represented? and to those thinking of themselves before the wider picture this will always seem "unfair". If you were watching over some kids and you had not noticed but for an hour one kid had been bullying other kids to achieve a huge lead over them in the game they were playing. so you step and stop the bullying.. great. but where is the incentive for the other kids to keep playing together if the historical effects of the bullying are not addressed?
    - dleslie 6y ago
      > you are not explaining why i would care though? Because many people endeavour to be better people because they care about other people. > How do propose getting more diversity without some kind of support or appreciation of the value of the under represented? You could improve diversity without appreciating their value, as well; following proscribed formulas to balance quotas doesn't guarantee that those applying the formula are going to reform their views. I'd improve diversity by dismantling systemic barriers; like unequal access to education, which must including access to after-school support, quality food, and so on. > but where is the incentive for the other kids to keep playing together if the historical effects of the bullying are not addressed? Because they are kids, and many kids are quick to forgive and forge new relationships.

bahlhala 6y ago

i get where you are coming from.. but the problem is the lack of a better option, this is not a perfect solution. as i said elswhere in comments - i saw my dad being respected for an ability to do stuff with his computer (computers were not generally used in offices etc. at the time). my childs mind wanted to get some of that respect.. so i invested time learning and playing with computers. I saw white dudes on tv doing everything - they were all the good guys (and even most of the bad guys) i grew up thinking i could do anything. i would love to be able to say the same for my daughter.

dleslie 6y ago
I suspect your kids will be fine as long as they have a supportive and conscientious parent, as you seem to be.
throwaway_35345 6y ago
> i would love to be able to say the same for my daughter Are you going to tell her how you did it? This seems like a real ends-justify-the-means dilema. I think what you're advocating for is fundamentally immoral. I accept it probably achieves the result we want, but we mustn't do it because it's wrong.
- dleslie 6y ago
  What is immoral about educating your children how to achieve the abilities you exhibit? Or am I misreading; what, specifically, do you think is immoral here? Perhaps I'm confused.
  - throwaway_35345 6y ago
    When you said > i would love to be able to say the same for my daughter. I thought you were expressing support for no longer hiring white men, which is what the thread was about? I think that's immoral.
    - dleslie 6y ago