11 ms·

Well... your choice is: - windows 10 - no privacy, hello telemetry, cortana, etc. - mac os - no freedom to do anything not allowed by apple - Linux - polish

Well... your choice is: - windows 10 - no privacy, hello telemetry, cortana, etc. - mac os - no freedom to do anything not allowed by apple - Linux - polish / ui issues? At least with Linux once I configure it right it works without issue and does everything I want. Currently that means kubuntu 20.04, AMD GPU (or intel integrated) and laptops that say they support it (Dell/Lenovo) or self built desktop. (I used gnome until I hit your NM issue too and it did not allow me to move top bar to the right... switched to KDE) I no longer have a fear of upgrading distributions/packages causing problems, nvidia drivers causing black screen after upgrade...

bluescrn 6y ago
But you’ve only got that choice on an ‘old fashioned’ PC. We could reach a point where PC hardware is unavailable, because the majority of people have switched to shiny but terribly-locked-down devices that have far surpassed anything that a ‘legacy open platform’ can do in terms of performance
yoz-y 6y ago
Do not underestimate how important polish and UI issues are to many people.
- adriancr 6y ago
  I know it is important, that and exterior looks of the hardware. Still, I do not have UI issues and the polish is fine on Linux, was explaining how to get there. Problem is people expect a 300$ Linux laptop to work like a mac usually... when you would need a similar priced dell xps or lenovo carbon x1 plus manufacturer to support Linux, like dell developer edition.
  - richiebful1 6y ago
    I agree. There are several distros (especially something like Elementary OS) that are pretty darn easy to pick up as a Windows user. I set up my very non-technical grandma up with Elementary OS and she loved it. I don't think the obstacles to adoption are based on the merits of Linux (or lack thereof). The obstacles are institutional. Businesses don't want to adopt Linux because that's a risk, and most people know Windows/Microsoft Office. Average people don't want to take a risk (installing Linux/buying a Linux box) with a device that is a decent-sized investment for most people.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
> At least with Linux once I configure it right it works without issue and does everything I want. Until an update breaks it because some asshole decided to break an ABI, or swap out a fundamental system component with a different one, etc. So I guess what you're saying is true so long as you never update anything.
- adriancr 6y ago
  Do you have concrete experience for that? I have only 3 things I hit: - NVIDIA driver updates (or kernel updates while using nvidia) - caused black screen... I dumped nvidia... these are due to crappy nvidia. - Ubuntu deciding to remove old libraries/apps that are not maintained. That's fixed via docker or just keeping an old version. - Major version upgrades (ubuntu 18 to 20) - here I just re-install and it's expected, I wouldn't upgrade windows 7 to 10 either... Other then this I'm not sure what you are referring to?, systemd vs sysvinit? (you only get annoyed by those if you are a power user anyway) Note: I set up automatic updates packages every day and have not hit issues.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    > Do you have concrete experience for that? Yes. > NVIDIA driver updates (or kernel updates while using nvidia) - caused black screen... I dumped nvidia... these are due to crappy nvidia. This is a legitimate dispute and I'm not really counting it because as much as I think Linux should have a stable driver ABI, NVidia are being needlessly obtuse. > Ubuntu deciding to remove old libraries/apps that are not maintained. That's fixed via docker or just keeping an old version. Which is not a simple task. Why can't keeping old software be simple? It is in sane operating systems. Hell, even Linux can do it right, as AppImage proves, but the Linux Desktop community is so hell bent on making everything as complicated as possible that they pretty much ignore AppImage. > Major version upgrades (ubuntu 18 to 20) - here I just re-install and it's expected, I wouldn't upgrade windows 7 to 10 either... Ubuntu LTS receives 5 years of support, but most new software will not be backported to the repository for anywhere close to that long in my experience and instead you're getting about 2 years. Windows 7 was supported for nearly 11 years and it was rare new software didn't support it for that entire time. > you only get annoyed by those if you are a power user anyway Precisely. Linux Desktop people seem to think that targeting people who only need a web kiosk is somehow going to make them popular, but if people who actually know about and need the features of an actual desktop computer don't like it why would they ever recommend it to anyone?
millimeterman 6y ago
I have made multiple attempts to switch to Linux, spending days each time trying to customize it and get it how I wanted. And never did it ever approach the productivity and polish of macOS. Certainly I have issues with Apple, but it's a simple cost/benefit calculation. Right now the benefits of macOS vastly outweigh the downsides for me. Unless Apple's problems increase to the point of being unbearable (very likely to happen at some point) or the quality of desktop Linux increases significantly (unlikely to ever happen), I just can't justify switching. And I expect many, many other people are in the same boat. My computer is a tool. Idealistic notions about free software are nice, but they don't mean anything if that software is worse than a nonfree alternative. Free software needs to be _better_ to win, and I just don't see that ever happening in the consumer OS space.

bluescrn 6y ago

But you’ve only got that choice on an ‘old fashioned’ PC. We could reach a point where PC hardware is unavailable, because the majority of people have switched to shiny but terribly-locked-down devices that have far surpassed anything that a ‘legacy open platform’ can do in terms of performance

yoz-y 6y ago

Do not underestimate how important polish and UI issues are to many people.

adriancr 6y ago
I know it is important, that and exterior looks of the hardware. Still, I do not have UI issues and the polish is fine on Linux, was explaining how to get there. Problem is people expect a 300$ Linux laptop to work like a mac usually... when you would need a similar priced dell xps or lenovo carbon x1 plus manufacturer to support Linux, like dell developer edition.
- richiebful1 6y ago
  I agree. There are several distros (especially something like Elementary OS) that are pretty darn easy to pick up as a Windows user. I set up my very non-technical grandma up with Elementary OS and she loved it. I don't think the obstacles to adoption are based on the merits of Linux (or lack thereof). The obstacles are institutional. Businesses don't want to adopt Linux because that's a risk, and most people know Windows/Microsoft Office. Average people don't want to take a risk (installing Linux/buying a Linux box) with a device that is a decent-sized investment for most people.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago

> At least with Linux once I configure it right it works without issue and does everything I want. Until an update breaks it because some asshole decided to break an ABI, or swap out a fundamental system component with a different one, etc. So I guess what you're saying is true so long as you never update anything.

adriancr 6y ago
Do you have concrete experience for that? I have only 3 things I hit: - NVIDIA driver updates (or kernel updates while using nvidia) - caused black screen... I dumped nvidia... these are due to crappy nvidia. - Ubuntu deciding to remove old libraries/apps that are not maintained. That's fixed via docker or just keeping an old version. - Major version upgrades (ubuntu 18 to 20) - here I just re-install and it's expected, I wouldn't upgrade windows 7 to 10 either... Other then this I'm not sure what you are referring to?, systemd vs sysvinit? (you only get annoyed by those if you are a power user anyway) Note: I set up automatic updates packages every day and have not hit issues.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  > Do you have concrete experience for that? Yes. > NVIDIA driver updates (or kernel updates while using nvidia) - caused black screen... I dumped nvidia... these are due to crappy nvidia. This is a legitimate dispute and I'm not really counting it because as much as I think Linux should have a stable driver ABI, NVidia are being needlessly obtuse. > Ubuntu deciding to remove old libraries/apps that are not maintained. That's fixed via docker or just keeping an old version. Which is not a simple task. Why can't keeping old software be simple? It is in sane operating systems. Hell, even Linux can do it right, as AppImage proves, but the Linux Desktop community is so hell bent on making everything as complicated as possible that they pretty much ignore AppImage. > Major version upgrades (ubuntu 18 to 20) - here I just re-install and it's expected, I wouldn't upgrade windows 7 to 10 either... Ubuntu LTS receives 5 years of support, but most new software will not be backported to the repository for anywhere close to that long in my experience and instead you're getting about 2 years. Windows 7 was supported for nearly 11 years and it was rare new software didn't support it for that entire time. > you only get annoyed by those if you are a power user anyway Precisely. Linux Desktop people seem to think that targeting people who only need a web kiosk is somehow going to make them popular, but if people who actually know about and need the features of an actual desktop computer don't like it why would they ever recommend it to anyone?

millimeterman 6y ago

I have made multiple attempts to switch to Linux, spending days each time trying to customize it and get it how I wanted. And never did it ever approach the productivity and polish of macOS. Certainly I have issues with Apple, but it's a simple cost/benefit calculation. Right now the benefits of macOS vastly outweigh the downsides for me. Unless Apple's problems increase to the point of being unbearable (very likely to happen at some point) or the quality of desktop Linux increases significantly (unlikely to ever happen), I just can't justify switching. And I expect many, many other people are in the same boat. My computer is a tool. Idealistic notions about free software are nice, but they don't mean anything if that software is worse than a nonfree alternative. Free software needs to be _better_ to win, and I just don't see that ever happening in the consumer OS space.