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How much the US botches large scale infrastructure projects is mind blowing. What is the purpose of having 5 different layers of agencies etc? Just to cover lia

How much the US botches large scale infrastructure projects is mind blowing. What is the purpose of having 5 different layers of agencies etc? Just to cover liability? Is there no company in the US that can build a high speed rail? And if so why not hire a Japanese or Chinese company that is obviously proficient at building these types of rail systems?

oritsnile 6y ago
There is a buy america act, which requires the government in buying from American companies, there are also federal similar laws which might be the reason here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_American_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_American_Act
- Retric 6y ago
  The other consideration is why the government doesn’t just build bridges with government workers. Nobody gets rich when government workers do something, it’s outsourcing which enables significant wealth transfer from government to private individuals. That creates huge incentives and means it’s those same companies try very hard to influence the rules.
  - oritsnile 6y ago
    Government companies are not famous for cost efficient work, at least not in Germany. So I'm not sure if there is anything to gain, but could be different in the US.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    >Nobody gets rich when government workers do something, A fraction of those government workers are people for whom the politicians intervened to alter the hiring process in their favor. You're heads in the sand if you think the politicians aren't getting favors in return either up front or later. The difference between in-house and contracting out is only the difference between lump sum and a monthly check.
    - Retric 6y ago
      At lest in the US federal government jobs don’t pay unusually well. Only 80 people made over 300k in 2018, but their almost entirely in healthcare. https://www.federalpay.org/employees/top-100 https://www.federalpay.org/employees/top-100 Senior government employees tend to get a vast pay bump when they move to private sector positions. That and power are the incentives to handing out the jobs not direct pay. By comparison thousands of people at federal contacting companies are making over 1 Million per year. Further those companies pull in billions in profits.
mrmonkeyman 6y ago
They are plainly not capable of it (anymore).
bleepblorp 6y ago
The Pedestrian Observations blog[0] has a lot of thoughts on this. The content is too long to go into here in depth. However, the TLDR is that the US (and, to an extent, the rest of the neoliberal world) botches transit and rail transport projects because government agencies lack the in-house capacity for effective management and rely too much on outside consultants whose interests are poorly aligned with those of taxpayers. Bringing in outside firms to do turnkey rail solutions does not have a good history, generally because non-local prime contractors want to do things the way they do in their home countries, which often isn't economical, or even possible, elsewhere. Bring in a Japanese, Chinese, or European high-speed rail prime contractor and they'll want to build a system using parts that aren't widely available in the US (think metric vs. imperial fasteners and go way up from there), which will make construction and maintenance very expensive. [0] https://pedestrianobservations.com https://pedestrianobservations.com (this is not my blog)
- arethuza 6y ago
  That reminds me of the Edinburgh trams project - which was a bit of a disaster during construction (mind you the end result is excellent): https://www.insider.co.uk/news/edinburgh-tram-inquiry-john-carson-12295822 https://www.insider.co.uk/news/edinburgh-tram-inquiry-john-c...
- jld89 6y ago
  > (and, to an extent, the rest of the neoliberal world) France, Germany and Spain have a skilled railbuilding workforce...
- M2Ys4U 6y ago
  The Metrolink in Manchester,[0] the UK's largest tram network, is a good counter-example. The expansion of the network been consistently well delivered over the last ~decade. The Airport Line opened a year ahead of schedule,[1] the Trafford Park line eight months ahead of schedule,[2] and the Second City Crossing was only a year behind it's aspirational opening date because of the discovery of a crypt buried under where a new station was being built.[3] I think this is mainly because there has been a pipeline of new projects enabling both the contractors and TfGM to retain skilled engineering and project management staff. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Metrolink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Metrolink [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-29879147 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-29879147 [2] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-51801265 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-51801265 [3] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-30779807 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-30779807
renewiltord 6y ago
POSIWID. These are jobs programs and they work for that. If you get a bridge out of it, you just count it as a bonus. It's like tipping. No one reports cash tips. IRS looks the other way. Why? It's a tax credit to these workers in that industry.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
>What is the purpose of having 5 different layers of agencies etc? Just to cover liability? Political power. Five different middle management hierarchies the politicians can appoint people to as favors. >And if so why not hire a Japanese or Chinese company that is obviously proficient at building these types of rail systems? Because it's not about building infrastructure. It's about the government serving itself.
foofoo4u 6y ago
> Is there no company in the US that can build a high speed rail? And if so why not hire a Japanese or Chinese company that is obviously proficient at building these types of rail systems? Texas is about to build their own bullet train: https://www.texascentral.com/ https://www.texascentral.com/. It'll be the same technology as the Japanese Shinkansen. > In 2014, it was announced[71] that Texas Central Railway would build a ~300-mile (~480 km) long line using the N700 series rolling stock. The trains are proposed to operate at over 320 km/h (200 mph). source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkansen#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkansen#United_States The difference between Texas and California is that the bullet train being built in Texas will be a private venture. It will be interesting to witness the difference in cost, quality and construction speed between the two states. It will be a test to see which state's economic and regulatory environment is more conducive for large-scale construction projects.

oritsnile 6y ago

There is a buy america act, which requires the government in buying from American companies, there are also federal similar laws which might be the reason here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_American_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_American_Act

Retric 6y ago
The other consideration is why the government doesn’t just build bridges with government workers. Nobody gets rich when government workers do something, it’s outsourcing which enables significant wealth transfer from government to private individuals. That creates huge incentives and means it’s those same companies try very hard to influence the rules.
- oritsnile 6y ago
  Government companies are not famous for cost efficient work, at least not in Germany. So I'm not sure if there is anything to gain, but could be different in the US.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  >Nobody gets rich when government workers do something, A fraction of those government workers are people for whom the politicians intervened to alter the hiring process in their favor. You're heads in the sand if you think the politicians aren't getting favors in return either up front or later. The difference between in-house and contracting out is only the difference between lump sum and a monthly check.
  - Retric 6y ago
    At lest in the US federal government jobs don’t pay unusually well. Only 80 people made over 300k in 2018, but their almost entirely in healthcare. https://www.federalpay.org/employees/top-100 https://www.federalpay.org/employees/top-100 Senior government employees tend to get a vast pay bump when they move to private sector positions. That and power are the incentives to handing out the jobs not direct pay. By comparison thousands of people at federal contacting companies are making over 1 Million per year. Further those companies pull in billions in profits.

mrmonkeyman 6y ago

They are plainly not capable of it (anymore).

bleepblorp 6y ago

The Pedestrian Observations blog[0] has a lot of thoughts on this. The content is too long to go into here in depth. However, the TLDR is that the US (and, to an extent, the rest of the neoliberal world) botches transit and rail transport projects because government agencies lack the in-house capacity for effective management and rely too much on outside consultants whose interests are poorly aligned with those of taxpayers. Bringing in outside firms to do turnkey rail solutions does not have a good history, generally because non-local prime contractors want to do things the way they do in their home countries, which often isn't economical, or even possible, elsewhere. Bring in a Japanese, Chinese, or European high-speed rail prime contractor and they'll want to build a system using parts that aren't widely available in the US (think metric vs. imperial fasteners and go way up from there), which will make construction and maintenance very expensive. [0] https://pedestrianobservations.com https://pedestrianobservations.com (this is not my blog)

arethuza 6y ago
That reminds me of the Edinburgh trams project - which was a bit of a disaster during construction (mind you the end result is excellent): https://www.insider.co.uk/news/edinburgh-tram-inquiry-john-carson-12295822 https://www.insider.co.uk/news/edinburgh-tram-inquiry-john-c...
jld89 6y ago
> (and, to an extent, the rest of the neoliberal world) France, Germany and Spain have a skilled railbuilding workforce...
M2Ys4U 6y ago
The Metrolink in Manchester,[0] the UK's largest tram network, is a good counter-example. The expansion of the network been consistently well delivered over the last ~decade. The Airport Line opened a year ahead of schedule,[1] the Trafford Park line eight months ahead of schedule,[2] and the Second City Crossing was only a year behind it's aspirational opening date because of the discovery of a crypt buried under where a new station was being built.[3] I think this is mainly because there has been a pipeline of new projects enabling both the contractors and TfGM to retain skilled engineering and project management staff. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Metrolink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Metrolink [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-29879147 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-29879147 [2] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-51801265 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-51801265 [3] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-30779807 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-30779807

renewiltord 6y ago

POSIWID. These are jobs programs and they work for that. If you get a bridge out of it, you just count it as a bonus. It's like tipping. No one reports cash tips. IRS looks the other way. Why? It's a tax credit to these workers in that industry.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

>What is the purpose of having 5 different layers of agencies etc? Just to cover liability? Political power. Five different middle management hierarchies the politicians can appoint people to as favors. >And if so why not hire a Japanese or Chinese company that is obviously proficient at building these types of rail systems? Because it's not about building infrastructure. It's about the government serving itself.

foofoo4u 6y ago

> Is there no company in the US that can build a high speed rail? And if so why not hire a Japanese or Chinese company that is obviously proficient at building these types of rail systems? Texas is about to build their own bullet train: https://www.texascentral.com/ https://www.texascentral.com/. It'll be the same technology as the Japanese Shinkansen. > In 2014, it was announced[71] that Texas Central Railway would build a ~300-mile (~480 km) long line using the N700 series rolling stock. The trains are proposed to operate at over 320 km/h (200 mph). source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkansen#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkansen#United_States The difference between Texas and California is that the bullet train being built in Texas will be a private venture. It will be interesting to witness the difference in cost, quality and construction speed between the two states. It will be a test to see which state's economic and regulatory environment is more conducive for large-scale construction projects.