10 ms·

You stop using Apple and go to a reasonable OS. You and I are not going to help Apple keep their $2T valuation, we are no longer the market not been one for 5

You stop using Apple and go to a reasonable OS. You and I are not going to help Apple keep their $2T valuation, we are no longer the market not been one for 5 + years for Apple Apple moved their focus from the professional market who were willing to pay premium for productivity with better UX/Hardware/Software, to people paying just the premium . It is a lifestyle brand now, people money because it is Apple, not because there is real value they gain for the higher cost. Depending on what you work with, Windows or Linux is by far better option today. MS listens to developers (eventually), WSL , professional support, a lot of graphical professional grade applications all make it attractive. Linux is lot more flexible, works with less friction makes it easy to work with containers servers etc, If you really need Apple hardware dual boot or flash a sensible OS .

gpanders 6y ago
While I also find these changes to macOS alarming and disappointing, I still vastly prefer macOS to Windows. My 2013 Macbook Pro is also still the best laptop I have ever used (I also have a 2017 Macbook Pro for work and I have to admit that the newer models rightfully earn their bad reputation). If Apple continues to head in this direction, I think the right move is to migrate to Linux. Windows is a huge step back, as far as I'm concerned.
- Wohlf 6y ago
  You may be surprised how much equivalent laptops from other OEMs have caught up. The Dell XPS is very similar to the Macbook Pro, and Dell supports Ubuntu on it.
  - EForEndeavour 6y ago
    How do the trackpad and battery life compare?
    - defnotashton2 6y ago
      Have yet to see a non Mac track pad that has more than two gestures..
      - se32point1 6y ago
        If you use Wayland (which... has its issues, but maybe they're better now?) on an XPS 13 Developer Edition... or even my junk Chromebook with MrChromebox's firmware installed so I can install Linux, you can get all sorts of gestures that are more than just "two gestures." Heck, even Windows supports gestures just fine. So...
        EForEndeavour 6y ago
        I have yet to encounter any non-Mac trackpad gestures that don't feel cheap, laggy, and/or too unreliable to bother committing to muscle memory. Apple's trackpad haptics and OS-level gesture support are second to none.
        crek5 6y ago
        then use keyboard combinations. they are faster and much more reliable. I am using a wayland window manager called sway, and while im pretty sure you can do everything with a mouse, you can configure it to do a lot of things with the keyboard. for example, I found the three-finger-tap which is used for copying and pasting was too difficult and slow, so i just bound it to mod+c and mod+v
        se32point1 6y ago
        I was gonna reply with this as well, but you just about nailed it. When my hands are almost 99% on the keyboard (especially when programming, or even while browsing the internet), why should I bother moving my hands back to the mouse when I can just use my comfortable and reliable keyboard?
      - barrkel 6y ago
        Try fusuma (gem install fusuma, may need user adding to input group to run, or run it with sudo). Gestures on trackpad for recent (libinput) Linux. It runs xdotool to stuff the keyboard buffer with keystrokes when it sees certain gestures. E.g. three finger swipe left and right do Alt-Left and Alt-Right, which have the effect of Back and Forward in the browser and some other browsing apps (e.g. IntelliJ). Four-finger swipe left and right switches desktop on my machine. It's one more finger than Mac but probably required not to conflict with two finger scroll.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - barrkel 6y ago
      Battery on my recent Dell is over 10 hours with Firefox usage. Leaps and bounds ahead of where things were at 4 years ago. Libinput, while less fully featured than synaptics, seems to have a better physics model for the trackpad pointer translation. It still doesn't have fractional scrolling though, every scroll is still a discrete increment.
  - LocutusOfBorges 6y ago
    The XPS line had some of the worst speakers I’ve ever heard on a laptop up until the 2020 revision- and some of the worst build quality issues I’ve ever experienced with a laptop. My 2019 XPS 15 went through eight at-home repair visits after hardware failures within four months. Can honestly say I’ve never used a less reliable machine- and every unit I’ve ever touched has had some of the worst coil wine issues I’ve ever encountered in any computer. “Very similar” doesn’t really count for much.
    - EugeneOZ 6y ago
      My sown owns XPS 15 (2019) and had just one issue (no hibernation on "lid close" event), which was fixed (although it wasn't simple). Build quality is amazing, keyboard is great, screen is awesome (4k, hdr, touch). It has the exact amount of ports my son needs, it can run games and it's weight is good to take it to the school.
    - ziml77 6y ago
      As someone who's returned their 2020 XPS 15, I can say that it hasn't gotten better. I can't speak for how well the hardware endures but it does have various flaws. Also didn't find the speakers to be good. Sounded worse than the SB2 I was replacing. Running an MBP now, but if sticking with Windows was important I'd have chosen a ThinkPad.
    - edelhans 6y ago
      If we're sharing anecdotes I also have a XPS13 9650 which is now over 4 years old and I never had any issues whatsoever with it. Runs Linux since day one and I could not be happier.
  - mistersys 6y ago
    I switched to a Dell XPS last year, then sold it on ebay 6 months later and bought a new Mac. WSL is a cool idea, but is still a bolt on solution, I was constantly fighting with it on windows with my unix-oriented workflow, trying to get apps and packages to work correctly. The trackpad feels like it's from 2012. The speakers are very bad. The fans are constantly whirring. It misses on all the details, while also making it harder to do my job.
    - TheKarateKid 6y ago
      >The trackpad feels like it's from 2012. The speakers are very bad. The fans are constantly whirring. It’s sad because the XPS is beautiful, but these same issues plague every Dell, HP, and basically non-Apple laptop. Even the most premium lineup (Envy, XPS, etc.) How many years and fancy designs will it take before PC OEMs actually develop an excellent trackpad, not use tinfoil speakers, and use silent fans?
      - zelly 6y ago
        Apple has patents on their trackpad. Dell etc. are literally not allowed to make good trackpads.
        AMC11 6y ago
        Apple has so many patents that it’s impossible to design a good, or even decent trackpad?
    - modo_mario 6y ago
      >WSL is a cool idea, but is still a bolt on solution, I was constantly fighting with it on windows with my unix-oriented workflow I wonder why not use Linux at that point tho?
      - zelly 6y ago
        Battery life and hardware support. You'd get better battery life and thermals running Linux in Virtualbox on a Windows/Mac laptop than on bare metal. I'm a Linux enthusiast but every time I use it on a laptop is pain. Laptops are like phones in that they need deep integration with the OS to be usable long-term. The best way to use Linux is on a desktop that you build and can control what hardware is used. (The desktop with multiple monitors is a superior form factor IMO for getting work done.)
  - wutbrodo 6y ago
    I got a MacBook-air sized xps, and the hardware is fantastic, better than any MacBook imo - the bezel alone makes it so. But I have never had a laptop that gave me as much trouble with Linux. I bought two of them over the course of a couple of years, and both the one that shipped with Windows and the one that shipped with Ubuntu had CONSTANT hardware compat issues. This was a while ago (after the reboot of the line), so the build quality and compatibility may each have gotten better/worse.
- gfxgirl 6y ago
  There are plenty of comparisons online showing for the same price as a Mac you can get a PC that will edit your photos, compress your videos, render your 3D architecture 3x to 4x as fast as the fastest Mac you can buy. If you're a professional might be throwing money down the toilet waiting for your mac depending on your use case. Note: I'm not a mac hater. I have 2, one I use every day and love it. I also have a PC I use every day. I still found the comparison videos enlightening.
  - rsfinn 6y ago
    I’m very curious to see whether this is still true once Apple starts shipping Pro machines with Apple Silicon processors. What if it’s not? How would that change the balance?
    - Tade0 6y ago
      That's a big "maybe", because apparently for them it's just a way to stop using Intel's outdated technology. AMD is currently running circles around Intel and won't be that easy to beat, especially because they have much lower prices.
  - vladvasiliu 6y ago
    While I haven't seen those comparisons, I did do a similar one myself. Like GP, I have a 2013 mbp. It still works perfectly and handles whatever I throw at it. As it's getting long in the tooth and it could end up not working anymore, and also because I got curious with the release of the 16" mbp, I looked a bit at the market, and also at similar offerings from Lenovo, HP and Dell. You are right, for the price of a 16" MBP with 64 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD, I could buy a maxed out Lenovo X1E with 2 SSDs, so I could dual boot windows and Linux (I use Photoshop / Lightroom for personal photography but can't stand Windows otherwise). Oh, and I'd probably have more than enough left to go on a trip somewhere and actually use the mobile part of the laptop. So yes, on pure performance numbers, I completely agree. However, that's really not the whole story. Not everybody needs absolute maximum performance. I wouldn't still be happy with my 7 yo mac if I did. I use my laptop every day for (hopefully) years and years. So I care about other things. First and most important of all, the touchpad. I've tried Lenovo (T series), Dell XPS and HP Elitebook models. They all absolutely suck compared to a mbp. A friend has a 2-3 yo Dell XPS. The palmrest plastic is all sticky, the screen is wobbly the touchpad is a nightmare (sometimes it clicks on its own). I have an HP from work I sometimes use. The junction between the palm rest and the body isn't level, so after a few hours of working on it my wrists are raw from rubbing on the body. The same laptop has a power light right in front of the screen that is blinding. I had to cover it with a piece of aluminum foil to be able to work in the evening. These kinds of annoyances make it worth it for me to spend the extra cash on a mbp that will just get out of my way and let me work.
- weystrom 6y ago
  > If Apple continues to head in this direction, I think the right move is to migrate to Linux. Windows is a huge step back, as far as I'm concerned. Linux desktop has so many hidden problems, especially on laptops, you're definitely better off going the Windows route, unless your time is free.
  - okamiueru 6y ago
    Care to enlighten? I've been using all three, and I'd rate Linux to be miles ahead of MacOs, which is a few steps ahead of Windows. For what an OS should do, Linux does it far better, and Windows does it terribly with its ancient nt kernel. Then it comes down to usability for end user, gnome gets out of the way, and allows pretty good customization. MacOs is pretty mediocre and restrictive. And Windows is again pretty bad. Then it comes to software availability, which is a bit a chicken and egg issue that I don't find too much value in. If the software availability restricts you, then you got to do what you got to do, with the options available. Then it comes to value for hardware. And here, oh my how things have changed in the past 5-10 years. If you don't buy a mac for the software availability, or for some other restriction, you are literally making a terrible purchase. You get a far worse computer for more than twice the cost. This is no exaggeration. Upgrading components when buying is somewhere between twice and ten times more expensive than the equivalent components.
    - ubermonkey 6y ago
      >If you don't buy a mac for the software availability, or for some other restriction, you are literally making a terrible purchase. I laughed. A lot. The whole thread is full of people noting the level of hardware and software polish on offer from Apple but unavailable elsewhere, and the seamlessness of working in a MacOS + iOS + WatchOS world and how nice that is, and your takeaway is that we're all dumbasses making the wrong choice. Peak HN right there, boyo.
      - okamiueru 6y ago
        You laughed a lot at that? Well, you do you. Also, there is no need to call yourself dumbass. It's OK to value things in different ways. Apparently, you value the walled garden and the benefits therein. That is OK. I personally do not see that value, and I would call it a terrible purchase. For me, computing power and flexibility is more important. It's also not like build quantity is exclusive to Apple. As a final takeaway, calling strangers 'boyo', that does make you look like a dumbass.
cwhiz 6y ago
>It is a lifestyle brand now, people money because it is Apple, not because there is real value they gain for the higher cost. Oh come now, there are millions and millions of professionals using macOS to do work every single day. This is basically a slippery slope fallacy. Today they're making it marginally hard, what might they do tomorrow?!? There are many reasons to prefer macOS to Linux or Windows. The Apple ecosystem works extraordinarily well together. There is nothing that you can buy, not with all the money in the world, that matches the seamlessness of owning an Apple Watch, iPhone, iPad, AirPods, and a macOS device. You can't do it with Linux, Windows, Android, or anything else. It doesn't exist. I prefer macOS for development work, and for basically any kind of work. I loathe the Windows UI/UX and Linux is far too often a second (or third) class citizen. There is nothing that I have needed to do that I have been unable to do because of macOS. Not once. Not to mention... if you want to write software for macOS, iPadOS, WatchOS, or iOS you must own at least one Mac.
- bmh100 6y ago
  One arguing that sn established0 pattern of behavior will continue into the future is not a slippery-slope fallacy. There is nothing fallacious about arguing that Apple will continue to make the OS more restrictive in the future, based on a profit motive. "The core of the slippery slope argument is that a specific decision under debate is likely to result in unintended consequences." [1] I don't see any claim of unintended consequences here. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
- drdeadringer 6y ago
  > there are millions and millions of professionals using macOS to do work every single day. Speaking for myself, every time I've used a Mac for work it's because I had to, being that it was what the employer issued. Could I have made a stink to be issued something else? Sure, but that is trading problems for problems. Have I used worse OSs? Yes, but that doesn't mean I should be grateful for what I find negative about the Mac OS. I'm not going to be buying myself a Mac as I'm more productive using a different OS, but it's fine if millions of others do. Just factor in that there's employers with IT decisions out there too.
fluffything 6y ago
> You stop using Apple and go to a reasonable OS. You and I are not going to help Apple keep their $2T valuation, we are no longer the market not been one for 5 + years for Apple Or you just buy apple stock and keep using Apple ? That way you are just helping yourself.
ubermonkey 6y ago
>It is a lifestyle brand now, people money because it is Apple, not because there is real value they gain for the higher cost. People who do not see the value love to say this, but it doesn't make it true.
- manquer 6y ago
  for more than 10 years I loved using Apple . My first introduction to Apple came during the G5 times in edit studios with Final Cut Pro I would rent those on hourly rate even when it was 30-35% costlier than Avid and premier pro . The project always ended cheaper because Apple was that good . My first computer was Apple the Airs were a great product , I loved the MagSafe port I loved the build quality when they move to aluminium. Half my company uses Apple because I evangelised them so hard . Therr a lot of people whose first Apple laptop was because of me. Today I use a system76, I have used various thinkpads over last few years , I would recommend thinkpad any day over similar priced Apple . I don’t see value for the cost anymore .
  - ubermonkey 6y ago
    So you're fine with a less polished / higher maintenance desktop OS. Not everyone is. I have absolutely no interest in going to an environment where I can't run native Office, or a decent mail client, etc. And I have less interest in putting up with the garbage fire that is Windows.
    - manquer 6y ago
      I find Linux considerably lesser effort to work with . I need to install Xcode command line tools to install even git . I need a package manager . the decades old gnu utils , the BSD style command order importance, lack of procfs , poor container support all mean I need to be constantly context switch between my local environment and dev/prod . I don’t need native MS office, with sharepoint and google there is really limited value to run a desktop version . Perhaps if you are professional publishing there maybe a need, for vast majority of regular office users who are just doing documents / presentations and spreadsheets for limited consumption , there is no real need for native office. The collaborative features online are lot more valuable One of the reasons I originally choose OS X was exactly office , it was valid 5-10 years back , I needed to be able to talk to developers and management/customers OSX fit that perfectly , it gave the best of both worlds , today using Linux if I download to file to Libreoffice sure the formatting still gets messed up ,however not once in sharepoint has it happened to me and only rarely in google docs Pre office 2016 , Apple versions of office had all kind of kinks which made it just as annoying to work with sometimes you were forced to keep mentioning your were on Apple version of Office Everyone ‘s needs are different, if your workflow does not have suitable alternatives you need it sure . My point is with average hardware and increasingly locked down OS the alternatives keep becoming more attractive . Don’t get me wrong OS X was/is still great . first time I did OS X upgrade 10-12 years back I was amazed , it did everything on its own , the files I had opened back exactly it felt out of the world ! compared to windows back then you had to format your disk reinstall all your apps and copy your files back . The application install/uninstall is great no messy over abused Registry needing you to reinstall the OS every 6 months. The UX is still great . However the other OSes have caught up and Apple is no longer ahead of the curve enough to warrant the effort

gpanders 6y ago

While I also find these changes to macOS alarming and disappointing, I still vastly prefer macOS to Windows. My 2013 Macbook Pro is also still the best laptop I have ever used (I also have a 2017 Macbook Pro for work and I have to admit that the newer models rightfully earn their bad reputation). If Apple continues to head in this direction, I think the right move is to migrate to Linux. Windows is a huge step back, as far as I'm concerned.

Wohlf 6y ago
You may be surprised how much equivalent laptops from other OEMs have caught up. The Dell XPS is very similar to the Macbook Pro, and Dell supports Ubuntu on it.
- EForEndeavour 6y ago
  How do the trackpad and battery life compare?
  - defnotashton2 6y ago
    Have yet to see a non Mac track pad that has more than two gestures..
    - se32point1 6y ago
      If you use Wayland (which... has its issues, but maybe they're better now?) on an XPS 13 Developer Edition... or even my junk Chromebook with MrChromebox's firmware installed so I can install Linux, you can get all sorts of gestures that are more than just "two gestures." Heck, even Windows supports gestures just fine. So...
      - EForEndeavour 6y ago
        I have yet to encounter any non-Mac trackpad gestures that don't feel cheap, laggy, and/or too unreliable to bother committing to muscle memory. Apple's trackpad haptics and OS-level gesture support are second to none.
        crek5 6y ago
        then use keyboard combinations. they are faster and much more reliable. I am using a wayland window manager called sway, and while im pretty sure you can do everything with a mouse, you can configure it to do a lot of things with the keyboard. for example, I found the three-finger-tap which is used for copying and pasting was too difficult and slow, so i just bound it to mod+c and mod+v
        se32point1 6y ago
        I was gonna reply with this as well, but you just about nailed it. When my hands are almost 99% on the keyboard (especially when programming, or even while browsing the internet), why should I bother moving my hands back to the mouse when I can just use my comfortable and reliable keyboard?
    - barrkel 6y ago
      Try fusuma (gem install fusuma, may need user adding to input group to run, or run it with sudo). Gestures on trackpad for recent (libinput) Linux. It runs xdotool to stuff the keyboard buffer with keystrokes when it sees certain gestures. E.g. three finger swipe left and right do Alt-Left and Alt-Right, which have the effect of Back and Forward in the browser and some other browsing apps (e.g. IntelliJ). Four-finger swipe left and right switches desktop on my machine. It's one more finger than Mac but probably required not to conflict with two finger scroll.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - barrkel 6y ago
    Battery on my recent Dell is over 10 hours with Firefox usage. Leaps and bounds ahead of where things were at 4 years ago. Libinput, while less fully featured than synaptics, seems to have a better physics model for the trackpad pointer translation. It still doesn't have fractional scrolling though, every scroll is still a discrete increment.
- LocutusOfBorges 6y ago
  The XPS line had some of the worst speakers I’ve ever heard on a laptop up until the 2020 revision- and some of the worst build quality issues I’ve ever experienced with a laptop. My 2019 XPS 15 went through eight at-home repair visits after hardware failures within four months. Can honestly say I’ve never used a less reliable machine- and every unit I’ve ever touched has had some of the worst coil wine issues I’ve ever encountered in any computer. “Very similar” doesn’t really count for much.
  - EugeneOZ 6y ago
    My sown owns XPS 15 (2019) and had just one issue (no hibernation on "lid close" event), which was fixed (although it wasn't simple). Build quality is amazing, keyboard is great, screen is awesome (4k, hdr, touch). It has the exact amount of ports my son needs, it can run games and it's weight is good to take it to the school.
  - ziml77 6y ago
    As someone who's returned their 2020 XPS 15, I can say that it hasn't gotten better. I can't speak for how well the hardware endures but it does have various flaws. Also didn't find the speakers to be good. Sounded worse than the SB2 I was replacing. Running an MBP now, but if sticking with Windows was important I'd have chosen a ThinkPad.
  - edelhans 6y ago
    If we're sharing anecdotes I also have a XPS13 9650 which is now over 4 years old and I never had any issues whatsoever with it. Runs Linux since day one and I could not be happier.
- mistersys 6y ago
  I switched to a Dell XPS last year, then sold it on ebay 6 months later and bought a new Mac. WSL is a cool idea, but is still a bolt on solution, I was constantly fighting with it on windows with my unix-oriented workflow, trying to get apps and packages to work correctly. The trackpad feels like it's from 2012. The speakers are very bad. The fans are constantly whirring. It misses on all the details, while also making it harder to do my job.
  - TheKarateKid 6y ago
    >The trackpad feels like it's from 2012. The speakers are very bad. The fans are constantly whirring. It’s sad because the XPS is beautiful, but these same issues plague every Dell, HP, and basically non-Apple laptop. Even the most premium lineup (Envy, XPS, etc.) How many years and fancy designs will it take before PC OEMs actually develop an excellent trackpad, not use tinfoil speakers, and use silent fans?
    - zelly 6y ago
      Apple has patents on their trackpad. Dell etc. are literally not allowed to make good trackpads.
      - AMC11 6y ago
        Apple has so many patents that it’s impossible to design a good, or even decent trackpad?
  - modo_mario 6y ago
    >WSL is a cool idea, but is still a bolt on solution, I was constantly fighting with it on windows with my unix-oriented workflow I wonder why not use Linux at that point tho?
    - zelly 6y ago
      Battery life and hardware support. You'd get better battery life and thermals running Linux in Virtualbox on a Windows/Mac laptop than on bare metal. I'm a Linux enthusiast but every time I use it on a laptop is pain. Laptops are like phones in that they need deep integration with the OS to be usable long-term. The best way to use Linux is on a desktop that you build and can control what hardware is used. (The desktop with multiple monitors is a superior form factor IMO for getting work done.)
- wutbrodo 6y ago
  I got a MacBook-air sized xps, and the hardware is fantastic, better than any MacBook imo - the bezel alone makes it so. But I have never had a laptop that gave me as much trouble with Linux. I bought two of them over the course of a couple of years, and both the one that shipped with Windows and the one that shipped with Ubuntu had CONSTANT hardware compat issues. This was a while ago (after the reboot of the line), so the build quality and compatibility may each have gotten better/worse.
gfxgirl 6y ago
There are plenty of comparisons online showing for the same price as a Mac you can get a PC that will edit your photos, compress your videos, render your 3D architecture 3x to 4x as fast as the fastest Mac you can buy. If you're a professional might be throwing money down the toilet waiting for your mac depending on your use case. Note: I'm not a mac hater. I have 2, one I use every day and love it. I also have a PC I use every day. I still found the comparison videos enlightening.
- rsfinn 6y ago
  I’m very curious to see whether this is still true once Apple starts shipping Pro machines with Apple Silicon processors. What if it’s not? How would that change the balance?
  - Tade0 6y ago
    That's a big "maybe", because apparently for them it's just a way to stop using Intel's outdated technology. AMD is currently running circles around Intel and won't be that easy to beat, especially because they have much lower prices.
- vladvasiliu 6y ago
  While I haven't seen those comparisons, I did do a similar one myself. Like GP, I have a 2013 mbp. It still works perfectly and handles whatever I throw at it. As it's getting long in the tooth and it could end up not working anymore, and also because I got curious with the release of the 16" mbp, I looked a bit at the market, and also at similar offerings from Lenovo, HP and Dell. You are right, for the price of a 16" MBP with 64 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD, I could buy a maxed out Lenovo X1E with 2 SSDs, so I could dual boot windows and Linux (I use Photoshop / Lightroom for personal photography but can't stand Windows otherwise). Oh, and I'd probably have more than enough left to go on a trip somewhere and actually use the mobile part of the laptop. So yes, on pure performance numbers, I completely agree. However, that's really not the whole story. Not everybody needs absolute maximum performance. I wouldn't still be happy with my 7 yo mac if I did. I use my laptop every day for (hopefully) years and years. So I care about other things. First and most important of all, the touchpad. I've tried Lenovo (T series), Dell XPS and HP Elitebook models. They all absolutely suck compared to a mbp. A friend has a 2-3 yo Dell XPS. The palmrest plastic is all sticky, the screen is wobbly the touchpad is a nightmare (sometimes it clicks on its own). I have an HP from work I sometimes use. The junction between the palm rest and the body isn't level, so after a few hours of working on it my wrists are raw from rubbing on the body. The same laptop has a power light right in front of the screen that is blinding. I had to cover it with a piece of aluminum foil to be able to work in the evening. These kinds of annoyances make it worth it for me to spend the extra cash on a mbp that will just get out of my way and let me work.
weystrom 6y ago
> If Apple continues to head in this direction, I think the right move is to migrate to Linux. Windows is a huge step back, as far as I'm concerned. Linux desktop has so many hidden problems, especially on laptops, you're definitely better off going the Windows route, unless your time is free.
- okamiueru 6y ago
  Care to enlighten? I've been using all three, and I'd rate Linux to be miles ahead of MacOs, which is a few steps ahead of Windows. For what an OS should do, Linux does it far better, and Windows does it terribly with its ancient nt kernel. Then it comes down to usability for end user, gnome gets out of the way, and allows pretty good customization. MacOs is pretty mediocre and restrictive. And Windows is again pretty bad. Then it comes to software availability, which is a bit a chicken and egg issue that I don't find too much value in. If the software availability restricts you, then you got to do what you got to do, with the options available. Then it comes to value for hardware. And here, oh my how things have changed in the past 5-10 years. If you don't buy a mac for the software availability, or for some other restriction, you are literally making a terrible purchase. You get a far worse computer for more than twice the cost. This is no exaggeration. Upgrading components when buying is somewhere between twice and ten times more expensive than the equivalent components.
  - ubermonkey 6y ago
    >If you don't buy a mac for the software availability, or for some other restriction, you are literally making a terrible purchase. I laughed. A lot. The whole thread is full of people noting the level of hardware and software polish on offer from Apple but unavailable elsewhere, and the seamlessness of working in a MacOS + iOS + WatchOS world and how nice that is, and your takeaway is that we're all dumbasses making the wrong choice. Peak HN right there, boyo.
    - okamiueru 6y ago
      You laughed a lot at that? Well, you do you. Also, there is no need to call yourself dumbass. It's OK to value things in different ways. Apparently, you value the walled garden and the benefits therein. That is OK. I personally do not see that value, and I would call it a terrible purchase. For me, computing power and flexibility is more important. It's also not like build quantity is exclusive to Apple. As a final takeaway, calling strangers 'boyo', that does make you look like a dumbass.

cwhiz 6y ago

>It is a lifestyle brand now, people money because it is Apple, not because there is real value they gain for the higher cost. Oh come now, there are millions and millions of professionals using macOS to do work every single day. This is basically a slippery slope fallacy. Today they're making it marginally hard, what might they do tomorrow?!? There are many reasons to prefer macOS to Linux or Windows. The Apple ecosystem works extraordinarily well together. There is nothing that you can buy, not with all the money in the world, that matches the seamlessness of owning an Apple Watch, iPhone, iPad, AirPods, and a macOS device. You can't do it with Linux, Windows, Android, or anything else. It doesn't exist. I prefer macOS for development work, and for basically any kind of work. I loathe the Windows UI/UX and Linux is far too often a second (or third) class citizen. There is nothing that I have needed to do that I have been unable to do because of macOS. Not once. Not to mention... if you want to write software for macOS, iPadOS, WatchOS, or iOS you must own at least one Mac.

bmh100 6y ago
One arguing that sn established0 pattern of behavior will continue into the future is not a slippery-slope fallacy. There is nothing fallacious about arguing that Apple will continue to make the OS more restrictive in the future, based on a profit motive. "The core of the slippery slope argument is that a specific decision under debate is likely to result in unintended consequences." [1] I don't see any claim of unintended consequences here. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
drdeadringer 6y ago
> there are millions and millions of professionals using macOS to do work every single day. Speaking for myself, every time I've used a Mac for work it's because I had to, being that it was what the employer issued. Could I have made a stink to be issued something else? Sure, but that is trading problems for problems. Have I used worse OSs? Yes, but that doesn't mean I should be grateful for what I find negative about the Mac OS. I'm not going to be buying myself a Mac as I'm more productive using a different OS, but it's fine if millions of others do. Just factor in that there's employers with IT decisions out there too.

fluffything 6y ago

> You stop using Apple and go to a reasonable OS. You and I are not going to help Apple keep their $2T valuation, we are no longer the market not been one for 5 + years for Apple Or you just buy apple stock and keep using Apple ? That way you are just helping yourself.

ubermonkey 6y ago

>It is a lifestyle brand now, people money because it is Apple, not because there is real value they gain for the higher cost. People who do not see the value love to say this, but it doesn't make it true.

manquer 6y ago
for more than 10 years I loved using Apple . My first introduction to Apple came during the G5 times in edit studios with Final Cut Pro I would rent those on hourly rate even when it was 30-35% costlier than Avid and premier pro . The project always ended cheaper because Apple was that good . My first computer was Apple the Airs were a great product , I loved the MagSafe port I loved the build quality when they move to aluminium. Half my company uses Apple because I evangelised them so hard . Therr a lot of people whose first Apple laptop was because of me. Today I use a system76, I have used various thinkpads over last few years , I would recommend thinkpad any day over similar priced Apple . I don’t see value for the cost anymore .
- ubermonkey 6y ago
  So you're fine with a less polished / higher maintenance desktop OS. Not everyone is. I have absolutely no interest in going to an environment where I can't run native Office, or a decent mail client, etc. And I have less interest in putting up with the garbage fire that is Windows.
  - manquer 6y ago
    I find Linux considerably lesser effort to work with . I need to install Xcode command line tools to install even git . I need a package manager . the decades old gnu utils , the BSD style command order importance, lack of procfs , poor container support all mean I need to be constantly context switch between my local environment and dev/prod . I don’t need native MS office, with sharepoint and google there is really limited value to run a desktop version . Perhaps if you are professional publishing there maybe a need, for vast majority of regular office users who are just doing documents / presentations and spreadsheets for limited consumption , there is no real need for native office. The collaborative features online are lot more valuable One of the reasons I originally choose OS X was exactly office , it was valid 5-10 years back , I needed to be able to talk to developers and management/customers OSX fit that perfectly , it gave the best of both worlds , today using Linux if I download to file to Libreoffice sure the formatting still gets messed up ,however not once in sharepoint has it happened to me and only rarely in google docs Pre office 2016 , Apple versions of office had all kind of kinks which made it just as annoying to work with sometimes you were forced to keep mentioning your were on Apple version of Office Everyone ‘s needs are different, if your workflow does not have suitable alternatives you need it sure . My point is with average hardware and increasingly locked down OS the alternatives keep becoming more attractive . Don’t get me wrong OS X was/is still great . first time I did OS X upgrade 10-12 years back I was amazed , it did everything on its own , the files I had opened back exactly it felt out of the world ! compared to windows back then you had to format your disk reinstall all your apps and copy your files back . The application install/uninstall is great no messy over abused Registry needing you to reinstall the OS every 6 months. The UX is still great . However the other OSes have caught up and Apple is no longer ahead of the curve enough to warrant the effort