4 ms·

Palestinians are an occupied people living under Israeli apartheid.

starik36 6y ago
There are a good chunk of Palestinians living under Arab control in Gaza. They also haven't voted since 2007. How do you explain that?
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  The result of their last election led to Israeli raids, detention of parliament/cabinet members, and increased sanctions from both Israel and the US. Why would they want a new election? Further, Israel and the US have both given signals saying that next time they'll ensure the results they want
  - sbmthakur 6y ago
    Fatah-Hamas conflict is deserves the blame for that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      The events I listed were not part of the Fatah-Hamas conflict, they were retaliation from the US and Israel for Hamas winning the election.
      - sbmthakur 6y ago
        The GP was talking about Palestinians being unable to vote. While it's easy to place blame Palestine issues on the US and Israel, in this case it's clear that elections are not taking place because Fatah and Hamas can't get their house in order.
        boomboomsubban 6y ago
        The discussion is about Palestinian sovereignty. When your election results in the kind of retaliation I mentioned, why would you work towards another? Such elections aren't proof of democracy.
        starik36 6y ago
        > Such elections aren't proof of democracy While the current situation is an indicator that Palestinians don't get to choose their leaders.
  - starik36 6y ago
    That's a lot of excuses most of which do not stand up to scrutiny. However you slice it, Hamas is in full charge of Gaza. They can call for a new election whenever they want.
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      >That's a lot of excuses most of which do not stand up to scrutiny. It is an easily verifiable series of events that took place in ~2006. Here's some sources. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/aug/21/israel https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/aug/21/israel https://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/18/world/middleeast/hamas-leader-faults-israeli-sanction-plan.html https://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/18/world/middleeast/hamas-le... >While the current situation is an indicator that Palestinians don't get to choose their leaders When your choice of leaders results in such retaliation, an election does not enable you to choose your leaders either.
      - starik36 6y ago
        Your links betray how long ago this has happened. You are using excuses from 2006 to justify why a group of people doesn't deserve democracy.
        boomboomsubban 6y ago
        I figured saying "The result of their last election led to..." made it clear when this happened. The blockade resulting from those events is still ongoing, these things aren't ancient history. The Palestinians definitely deserve democracy, however creating one will require more than just an election.
        starik36 6y ago
        The blockade resulted from Hamas sniping at Israel with mortars and missiles and rockets for nearly 15 years - which also caused 2-3 major wars. The moment they stop their shenanigans is the day the blockade ends. I agree that creating a democracy needs more than just an election. However, perhaps letting them vote in some new people might result in governance that is willing to play ball and come up with some kind of agreement.
- Yc4win 6y ago
  The Palestinian's that I have talked to say it's because of retaliation from israel and the threats of violence.

There are a good chunk of Palestinians living under Arab control in Gaza. They also haven't voted since 2007. How do you explain that?

boomboomsubban 6y ago
The result of their last election led to Israeli raids, detention of parliament/cabinet members, and increased sanctions from both Israel and the US. Why would they want a new election? Further, Israel and the US have both given signals saying that next time they'll ensure the results they want
- sbmthakur 6y ago
  Fatah-Hamas conflict is deserves the blame for that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    The events I listed were not part of the Fatah-Hamas conflict, they were retaliation from the US and Israel for Hamas winning the election.
    - sbmthakur 6y ago
      The GP was talking about Palestinians being unable to vote. While it's easy to place blame Palestine issues on the US and Israel, in this case it's clear that elections are not taking place because Fatah and Hamas can't get their house in order.
      - boomboomsubban 6y ago
        The discussion is about Palestinian sovereignty. When your election results in the kind of retaliation I mentioned, why would you work towards another? Such elections aren't proof of democracy.
        starik36 6y ago
        > Such elections aren't proof of democracy While the current situation is an indicator that Palestinians don't get to choose their leaders.
- starik36 6y ago
  That's a lot of excuses most of which do not stand up to scrutiny. However you slice it, Hamas is in full charge of Gaza. They can call for a new election whenever they want.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    >That's a lot of excuses most of which do not stand up to scrutiny. It is an easily verifiable series of events that took place in ~2006. Here's some sources. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/aug/21/israel https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/aug/21/israel https://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/18/world/middleeast/hamas-leader-faults-israeli-sanction-plan.html https://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/18/world/middleeast/hamas-le... >While the current situation is an indicator that Palestinians don't get to choose their leaders When your choice of leaders results in such retaliation, an election does not enable you to choose your leaders either.
    - starik36 6y ago
      Your links betray how long ago this has happened. You are using excuses from 2006 to justify why a group of people doesn't deserve democracy.
      - boomboomsubban 6y ago
        I figured saying "The result of their last election led to..." made it clear when this happened. The blockade resulting from those events is still ongoing, these things aren't ancient history. The Palestinians definitely deserve democracy, however creating one will require more than just an election.
        starik36 6y ago
        The blockade resulted from Hamas sniping at Israel with mortars and missiles and rockets for nearly 15 years - which also caused 2-3 major wars. The moment they stop their shenanigans is the day the blockade ends. I agree that creating a democracy needs more than just an election. However, perhaps letting them vote in some new people might result in governance that is willing to play ball and come up with some kind of agreement.
Yc4win 6y ago
The Palestinian's that I have talked to say it's because of retaliation from israel and the threats of violence.