4 ms·

Sounds really crazy to me, here in Hungary most kids start structured classes at 6 or 7 years old. Before that it's just playing outside, singing, listening to

Sounds really crazy to me, here in Hungary most kids start structured classes at 6 or 7 years old. Before that it's just playing outside, singing, listening to fairy tales, going to hiking trips, to the zoo etc. This tight grip on American kids looks extremely stressful and harmful (helicopter/bubble wrap parenting, structuring every waking hour with classes and extracurriculars, driving them everywhere, never leaving them to themselves etc).

actfrench 6y ago
Same with Finland. https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/10/the-joyful-illiterate-kindergartners-of-finland/408325/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/10/the-jo... Most research shows that academic study vs play in preschool makes little difference in how kids turn out later in life. And that play might even be better. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/20/well/family/let-kids-play.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/20/well/family/let-kids-play... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/well/family/taking-playtime-seriously.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/well/family/taking-playti...
grugagag 6y ago
Of course it is harmful. And that together with standardized tests, textbooks stuffed with information that neither the editors fully read is a recipe for a bad outcome. And it doesn't end there, professors are bombarded with so much bureaucratic crap that many of them who would otherwise put up with really bad pay just to be able to teach kids simply give up, but that's just a tangent here. When kids play they learn a whole lot more about the world, social interactions, their bodies and what not. Kids can learn some things quite early and it is not a bad idea to teach them early either a second language or to read early or some other useful skills. But the problem is this has been exaggerated greatly and way too much is pushed on them.
- Shared404 6y ago
  Well clearly you are incorrect because all of the smart people said we have to test to make sure that the kids are learning and we can only make sure that the kids learn by sitting them down and making sure they know the trivia for the test to make sure their learning, because the smart people said the test will make them learn, by making sure their learning. /s On the bright side, for every one of the above administrators there is a teacher who actually wants to help kids grow. Edit: Teacher -> Administrator. I haven't met teachers who actually like standardized testing.
  - UnpossibleJim 6y ago
    You make fun of the educational structure, but it's base structure can clearly succeed if given the right support from the family and the correct budget. Japan has done exceedingly well (though a little over stressed - there can be balance) with a very similar base model. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Japan I understand that bashing all things American has become en vogue, but some things have just become corrupted due to lack of proper maintenance, really. Much like our health care system which has become over saturated with special interest and privatisation instead of a patient focus. We've forgotten how to keep our eye on the prize, as it were, and lost focus on what the goal actually is.
    - Shared404 6y ago
      > You make fun of the educational structure, but it's base structure can clearly succeed if given the right support from the family and the correct budget. I did not mean to make fun of the structure itself so much as point out it's failings in our current environment, as you pointed out, Japan does it well, if a bit stressfully. > I understand that bashing all things American has become en vogue This was not my intent, I'm sorry if it came across that way. > things have just become corrupted due to lack of proper maintenance, really. I would argue that it's not just a lack of maintanence. There are a number of people who actively work against correct education because "That's not how we do it". I think you summed it up well with > We've forgotten how to keep our eye on the prize, as it were, and lost focus on what the goal actually is. Edit: Having read the other comment, it sounds like Japan has issues as well. I still believe this model could be successful, but it would appear it's hard to get right.
    - 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
      Elementary school in Japan is OK. It kind of goes off the rails after that though, with success in life largely dependent on a few exams, the content of which is not properly taught in school so everybody with the slightest ambition has to go to cram school (juku) to make up for it.
    - andreareina 6y ago
mumblemumble 6y ago
I don't want to say Americans don't love and cherish their children. But the uncomfortable truth is that our culture has become so materialist that, on a mass scale, when we look at our children, we don't really see the people they are now. We see the economic participants they will be in 15 years.
- slowmovintarget 6y ago
  I think it's a bit different. This forcing of academics into Kindergarten is more of a panic reaction to the overall low quality of the American education system. Unfortunately, this reaction ignores cognitive science for a try-harder approach. It isn't about materialism or care. It's about having education driven by supposition instead of evidence and what we know works. Phonics would still be core to early curriculum, for example, if we followed the science. It's harder to teach than "whole word" reading, but phonics actually works and we have decades of evidence, and mountains of cognitive science to show us why.
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    I agree that there needs to be a more evidence-based approach. Though, I don't quite follow you on the specific example. The scientific consensus that I'm familiar with (based on trying to figure out, a couple years ago, how best to support a young child who was very eager to learn to read) is that you get the best outcomes when you use both approaches, and the current thinking is that no reading instruction program that is based on just phonics or just whole word can be considered a complete reading instruction program.
    - slowmovintarget 6y ago
      From what we now know, the "whole word" or "whole language" approach seems to be actively harmful. It is linked to the dramatic increase in dyslexia in the regions where it is used to teach English reading. https://www.apmreports.org/episode/2019/08/22/whats-wrong-how-schools-teach-reading https://www.apmreports.org/episode/2019/08/22/whats-wrong-ho... > ...it turns out cueing may actually prevent kids from focusing on words in the way they need to become skilled readers. Turns out this was previously discussed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23981447 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23981447
ayyy 6y ago
Odd. How does Hungary break their children down for a lifetime of labor?
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  There's plenty of time to do that after the age of 6-7.
lioeters 6y ago
> ..playing outside, singing, listening to fairy tales, going to hiking trips, to the zoo.. That sounds like wonderful early childhood activities, healthy for the body and mind. Having gone to a Japanese kindergarten, I remember it being a friendly experience, similar to what you described. However, as soon as basic school starts (6~7 years old), it can get stressful depending on the region, public/private school, and parents' social class and expectations.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  Also, this doesn't mean we were always just let loose. The "teachers"/"nurses" (not sure of the word) taught us a great deal of stuff, like different tree types and bird species etc. We'd have a poster with different birds on the wall and we'd then listen and look for them in the parks etc. We learned to identify trees based on their leaves and so on. We learned about national holidays and what they meant (so a bit of history even), to do crafts, like Easter decorations and so on. So I don't mean we were like feral children without any guidance, it just wasn't structured like school.

actfrench 6y ago

Same with Finland. https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/10/the-joyful-illiterate-kindergartners-of-finland/408325/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/10/the-jo... Most research shows that academic study vs play in preschool makes little difference in how kids turn out later in life. And that play might even be better. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/20/well/family/let-kids-play.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/20/well/family/let-kids-play... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/well/family/taking-playtime-seriously.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/well/family/taking-playti...

grugagag 6y ago

Of course it is harmful. And that together with standardized tests, textbooks stuffed with information that neither the editors fully read is a recipe for a bad outcome. And it doesn't end there, professors are bombarded with so much bureaucratic crap that many of them who would otherwise put up with really bad pay just to be able to teach kids simply give up, but that's just a tangent here. When kids play they learn a whole lot more about the world, social interactions, their bodies and what not. Kids can learn some things quite early and it is not a bad idea to teach them early either a second language or to read early or some other useful skills. But the problem is this has been exaggerated greatly and way too much is pushed on them.

Shared404 6y ago
Well clearly you are incorrect because all of the smart people said we have to test to make sure that the kids are learning and we can only make sure that the kids learn by sitting them down and making sure they know the trivia for the test to make sure their learning, because the smart people said the test will make them learn, by making sure their learning. /s On the bright side, for every one of the above administrators there is a teacher who actually wants to help kids grow. Edit: Teacher -> Administrator. I haven't met teachers who actually like standardized testing.
- UnpossibleJim 6y ago
  You make fun of the educational structure, but it's base structure can clearly succeed if given the right support from the family and the correct budget. Japan has done exceedingly well (though a little over stressed - there can be balance) with a very similar base model. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Japan I understand that bashing all things American has become en vogue, but some things have just become corrupted due to lack of proper maintenance, really. Much like our health care system which has become over saturated with special interest and privatisation instead of a patient focus. We've forgotten how to keep our eye on the prize, as it were, and lost focus on what the goal actually is.
  - Shared404 6y ago
    > You make fun of the educational structure, but it's base structure can clearly succeed if given the right support from the family and the correct budget. I did not mean to make fun of the structure itself so much as point out it's failings in our current environment, as you pointed out, Japan does it well, if a bit stressfully. > I understand that bashing all things American has become en vogue This was not my intent, I'm sorry if it came across that way. > things have just become corrupted due to lack of proper maintenance, really. I would argue that it's not just a lack of maintanence. There are a number of people who actively work against correct education because "That's not how we do it". I think you summed it up well with > We've forgotten how to keep our eye on the prize, as it were, and lost focus on what the goal actually is. Edit: Having read the other comment, it sounds like Japan has issues as well. I still believe this model could be successful, but it would appear it's hard to get right.
  - 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
    Elementary school in Japan is OK. It kind of goes off the rails after that though, with success in life largely dependent on a few exams, the content of which is not properly taught in school so everybody with the slightest ambition has to go to cram school (juku) to make up for it.
  - andreareina 6y ago

mumblemumble 6y ago

I don't want to say Americans don't love and cherish their children. But the uncomfortable truth is that our culture has become so materialist that, on a mass scale, when we look at our children, we don't really see the people they are now. We see the economic participants they will be in 15 years.

slowmovintarget 6y ago
I think it's a bit different. This forcing of academics into Kindergarten is more of a panic reaction to the overall low quality of the American education system. Unfortunately, this reaction ignores cognitive science for a try-harder approach. It isn't about materialism or care. It's about having education driven by supposition instead of evidence and what we know works. Phonics would still be core to early curriculum, for example, if we followed the science. It's harder to teach than "whole word" reading, but phonics actually works and we have decades of evidence, and mountains of cognitive science to show us why.
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  I agree that there needs to be a more evidence-based approach. Though, I don't quite follow you on the specific example. The scientific consensus that I'm familiar with (based on trying to figure out, a couple years ago, how best to support a young child who was very eager to learn to read) is that you get the best outcomes when you use both approaches, and the current thinking is that no reading instruction program that is based on just phonics or just whole word can be considered a complete reading instruction program.
  - slowmovintarget 6y ago
    From what we now know, the "whole word" or "whole language" approach seems to be actively harmful. It is linked to the dramatic increase in dyslexia in the regions where it is used to teach English reading. https://www.apmreports.org/episode/2019/08/22/whats-wrong-how-schools-teach-reading https://www.apmreports.org/episode/2019/08/22/whats-wrong-ho... > ...it turns out cueing may actually prevent kids from focusing on words in the way they need to become skilled readers. Turns out this was previously discussed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23981447 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23981447

ayyy 6y ago

Odd. How does Hungary break their children down for a lifetime of labor?

bonoboTP 6y ago
There's plenty of time to do that after the age of 6-7.

lioeters 6y ago

> ..playing outside, singing, listening to fairy tales, going to hiking trips, to the zoo.. That sounds like wonderful early childhood activities, healthy for the body and mind. Having gone to a Japanese kindergarten, I remember it being a friendly experience, similar to what you described. However, as soon as basic school starts (6~7 years old), it can get stressful depending on the region, public/private school, and parents' social class and expectations.

bonoboTP 6y ago
Also, this doesn't mean we were always just let loose. The "teachers"/"nurses" (not sure of the word) taught us a great deal of stuff, like different tree types and bird species etc. We'd have a poster with different birds on the wall and we'd then listen and look for them in the parks etc. We learned to identify trees based on their leaves and so on. We learned about national holidays and what they meant (so a bit of history even), to do crafts, like Easter decorations and so on. So I don't mean we were like feral children without any guidance, it just wasn't structured like school.