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>There is not a single democratic govt in the ME sans Israel The millions of Palestinians unable to vote for the government that controls their movement, trade

>There is not a single democratic govt in the ME sans Israel The millions of Palestinians unable to vote for the government that controls their movement, trade, and lives in general would probably disagree with your characterization of Israel as a democracy.

haltingproblem 6y ago
Wrong. Try again. There are 450~ million Arabs and you chose to focus on the 4.5 million Palestinians who voted in elections in 2006. These elections bought Hamas to power in in Gaza and PLO in the West Bank. Gaza is autonomous in terms of governance and has chosen to not hold elections since the last one in 2006. Neither has the PLO. They both plead unable to hold elections because they want to hang on to power though the international community wants them to. Edit: Getting down voted for stating facts.
- mkoubaa 6y ago
  Palestinians are a distinct ethnic group that happens to speak Arabic
  - mythrwy 6y ago
    Thank you! From what I've read the Palestinians are nominally at least descended from the Philistines of biblical history. The Philistines were an Indo European people originally from Crete. (of course there is much mixing after such a time, so "Arab" might not be completely off base).
    - mkoubaa 6y ago
      They didn't just mix with Arabs. Many Palestinians are descendants from the 12 tribes of Israel but have been disowned be the rest of those tribes because their ancestors changed religions.
- mmrezaie 6y ago
  I searched and I cannot see how you found 450 mil for population of arabs in te world. I even counted Turkey, Iran, and Pakistan and none of these are arbs. Also, I talked to a palistinian friend and she thinks palistinians did not vote for Hamas becasue that was the choise. The other ones were just so corrupt. Any way your sentimate is just too reductive for a very complicated region.
  - haltingproblem 6y ago
    Did you count Egypt and Morocco and the rest of N. Africa? I might be off by 10% and most of these countries don't exactly hold a census.
    - mtalantikite 6y ago
      Algerian here. While there are certainly Arabs in the Maghreb, we’re not all Arabs and don’t generally identify as Arab. My family identifies as Amazigh. Most Algerians will tell you they’re Algerian, not Arab. Many friends from other parts of the Maghreb identify similarly.
      - haltingproblem 6y ago
        Having been to the Maghreb, I completely agree with you. There are Tuaregs and Amazigh and even the locals who are "Arabs" are a mixture. I should have used the term Arab-speaking world instead of Arab. There is no ethnic notion of Arabs as a race and I understand that. Shukran :)
- baybal2 6y ago
  Israel is not a democratic country because it supports the Saudi monarchy, a completely unprincipled, and despotic regime. Basically a Middle Eastern North Korea. A political regime supporting an inherently antidemocratic system is not democractic by the definition. They are also very fond of the Egyptian Sisi, an another tinpot despot. And am not joking here. People need to finally stop thinking of it as a some kind of tinfoil thing. The Israel—Saudi—Egyptian axis is 100% real. It sounds bizarre, but its true, been documentary verified, and supported by accounts of many diplomats of 3rd countries, US included. The open source investigatory journalists, among other things, established the fact of regular visits of their top officials to each other's countries. https://www.google.com/search?q=israel+saudi+axis https://www.google.com/search?q=israel+saudi+axis https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42094105 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42094105
  - haltingproblem 6y ago
    So does the US, UK, France, Germany. By your definition there are no democracies in the world. I was talking about the glories of Persian civilization and its glories and you had to drag in the "evil US-Saud-Egyptian" axis. You got an axe to grind.
    - baybal2 6y ago
      Out of these three, I think one one goes as far as do so boldly, loudly, and on the record. > the "evil US-Saud-Egyptian" axis. You got an axe to grind. Of course I do. For as long as I have a dime of moral judgement, and integrity, I will. Spawning Laden, Qaeda, other tinpot outfits, funding rogue dictatorships of Bashirs, Sisis, Gaddafis, committing the unspeakable barbarity of 9.11 attack, and effectively breaking the world as it is, for the last 20 years. What out of this is not worth the outrage???
    - tacheiordache 6y ago
      Surely the Persian civilization was glorious and it could still shine. The problem was you mentioning Israel and denigrating the Palestinians. I urge you to take a second look at this issue, Israel is a terrible oppressor of these people.
- tacheiordache 6y ago
  No, you're getting downvoted for ignoring the Israeli treatment of Palestinians, something akin to the holocaust that was inflicted on the Jews by the Nazis is being repeated now on the Palestinians, who are technically their distant cousins. You are being downvoted because you ignore history conveniently to support an apartheid state like Israel.
  - haltingproblem 6y ago
    Everything I said about the Palestinian elections is from Wikipedia and their direct words. You also ignore the fact that Arabs in Israel are the only Arabs (other than the Tunisian, occasionally) who can vote and have their own parties. Palestinians Arabs have had one national election and Israeli Arabs vote as often as Israel has elections which seems to be happening every year. Criticize Israel's conduct all you want but please come with facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Palestine
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - wombatmobile 6y ago
      The wikipedia article indicates an absence of democracy in Palestine, haltingproblem, wouldn't you agree? > Israel does not allow free exercise of political activities; checkpoints and separation walls hinder many social activities. The Legislative Council cannot properly function because free travel is impossible, especially between Gaza and the West Bank, regardless of hostilities between Fatah and Hamas. Members of the Palestinian Legislative Council and other politicians have been subject to lengthy detentions by Israel or even killed
- StanislavPetrov 6y ago
  >Edit: Getting down voted for stating facts. No, you're getting downvoted for stating falsehoods. Israel economically and militarily controls the occupied territories. Holding phony elections for "leaders" that are powerless to do anything because they wield no state power is not democracy. This would be true even if Gaza wasn't under an illegal blockade which prevents residents of Gaza from leaving without Israeli permission and prevents those from other countries from visiting or engaging in commerce with Gaza without Israeli permission. Reasonable people can disagree over what the way forward is in Israel, but people who deny reality in order to push their agenda are not reasonable.
- Despegar 6y ago
  Palestinians are an occupied people living under Israeli apartheid.
  - starik36 6y ago
    There are a good chunk of Palestinians living under Arab control in Gaza. They also haven't voted since 2007. How do you explain that?
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      The result of their last election led to Israeli raids, detention of parliament/cabinet members, and increased sanctions from both Israel and the US. Why would they want a new election? Further, Israel and the US have both given signals saying that next time they'll ensure the results they want
      - sbmthakur 6y ago
        Fatah-Hamas conflict is deserves the blame for that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict
        boomboomsubban 6y ago
        The events I listed were not part of the Fatah-Hamas conflict, they were retaliation from the US and Israel for Hamas winning the election.
        sbmthakur 6y ago
        The GP was talking about Palestinians being unable to vote. While it's easy to place blame Palestine issues on the US and Israel, in this case it's clear that elections are not taking place because Fatah and Hamas can't get their house in order.
- michaelkeenan 6y ago
  > Getting down voted for stating facts. I downvoted for the obnoxious phrasing of "Wrong. Try again." It goes against the first paragraph of the HN commenting guidelines: "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - haltingproblem 6y ago
    You were not responding to the snark but egging on a troll who made a serious political issue about an innocent mention of Israel in the pondering about the course of Persian history this century. Virtue signalers pop out of the woodwork each time Israel is mentioned. They don't ask everyone to preface each mention on Turkey with their persecution of the Kurds or their refusal to accept the Armenian Genocide. They don't take each mention of Egypt to talk about the Coptic exodus but each mention of Israel has to be prefaced.....this is insanity. I sincerely feel for the Palestinians because half the world is using them as their club for virtue signaling. This just eggs them to fight to the last Palestinian and give up every chance for peace and their own nation they ever had.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  Neither Hamas not the PLO hold the power of the state, therefore there are not democratic elections, therefore Palestine isn't a democratic nation. The immediate reason why they cannot hold elections for their government is because of Israeli occupation. Therefore, there are people that Israel exercise the power of the State over that do not vote for the State, therefore it is not a democracy.
  - starik36 6y ago
    I suppose you could argue that with PLO, but not Hamas. They are in complete control of Gaza have been since 2007. They could have held elections there anytime they wanted to. But they won't.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      According to Wikipedia : > Despite the 2005 Israeli disengagement from Gaza,[21] the United Nations, international human rights organisations, and the majority of governments and legal commentators consider the territory to be still occupied by Israel, supported by additional restrictions placed on Gaza by Egypt. Israel maintains direct external control over Gaza and indirect control over life within Gaza: it controls Gaza's air and maritime space, and six of Gaza's seven land crossings. It reserves the right to enter Gaza at will with its military and maintains a no-go buffer zone within the Gaza territory. Gaza is dependent on Israel for its water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.[21] The system of control imposed by Israel is described as an "indirect occupation". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip That being said, the occupation of Palestine nominally under PlO control is sufficient so that Israel is not a democracy.
      - sbmthakur 6y ago
        The US and UK won't be democratic by the same reasoning because they have "occupied" parts of Cuba and Argentina respectively. Not to forget that rockets are routinely fired into Israel from Gaza. So, it seems Israel has good reasons to exercise that kind of control over Gaza.
YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
Unfortunately, "democracy" doesn't mean "liberal democracy" and it certainly doesn't mean "nice democracy". For instance, in the Athenian democracy women and metics (immigrants) couldn't vote and slavery was legal. In modern times, the USA, the model of modern democracies, has the largest military in the world (in history!) and does not hesitate to use it to crush lesser nations. I wouldn't be able to tell you what "democratic" means exactly (I'm not a political scientist) but I susepect having elections without limits on who can vote and who can stand for office, having independent courts and the rule of law are important criteria and under those Israel sure checks out as a democracy. Its people are free. It just happens to keep crushing some other people, who are not its own people, under its heel.
- frenchyatwork 6y ago
  I think what the GP was getting at was that having a sizable population of people living within the de-facto boundaries of a state who are unable to vote (in this case, because they lack citizenship) makes it less democratic. That's a slightly different problem than the fact that democracies can be terrible if the voters choose terrible things.

haltingproblem 6y ago

Wrong. Try again. There are 450~ million Arabs and you chose to focus on the 4.5 million Palestinians who voted in elections in 2006. These elections bought Hamas to power in in Gaza and PLO in the West Bank. Gaza is autonomous in terms of governance and has chosen to not hold elections since the last one in 2006. Neither has the PLO. They both plead unable to hold elections because they want to hang on to power though the international community wants them to. Edit: Getting down voted for stating facts.

mkoubaa 6y ago
Palestinians are a distinct ethnic group that happens to speak Arabic
- mythrwy 6y ago
  Thank you! From what I've read the Palestinians are nominally at least descended from the Philistines of biblical history. The Philistines were an Indo European people originally from Crete. (of course there is much mixing after such a time, so "Arab" might not be completely off base).
  - mkoubaa 6y ago
    They didn't just mix with Arabs. Many Palestinians are descendants from the 12 tribes of Israel but have been disowned be the rest of those tribes because their ancestors changed religions.
mmrezaie 6y ago
I searched and I cannot see how you found 450 mil for population of arabs in te world. I even counted Turkey, Iran, and Pakistan and none of these are arbs. Also, I talked to a palistinian friend and she thinks palistinians did not vote for Hamas becasue that was the choise. The other ones were just so corrupt. Any way your sentimate is just too reductive for a very complicated region.
- haltingproblem 6y ago
  Did you count Egypt and Morocco and the rest of N. Africa? I might be off by 10% and most of these countries don't exactly hold a census.
  - mtalantikite 6y ago
    Algerian here. While there are certainly Arabs in the Maghreb, we’re not all Arabs and don’t generally identify as Arab. My family identifies as Amazigh. Most Algerians will tell you they’re Algerian, not Arab. Many friends from other parts of the Maghreb identify similarly.
    - haltingproblem 6y ago
      Having been to the Maghreb, I completely agree with you. There are Tuaregs and Amazigh and even the locals who are "Arabs" are a mixture. I should have used the term Arab-speaking world instead of Arab. There is no ethnic notion of Arabs as a race and I understand that. Shukran :)
baybal2 6y ago
Israel is not a democratic country because it supports the Saudi monarchy, a completely unprincipled, and despotic regime. Basically a Middle Eastern North Korea. A political regime supporting an inherently antidemocratic system is not democractic by the definition. They are also very fond of the Egyptian Sisi, an another tinpot despot. And am not joking here. People need to finally stop thinking of it as a some kind of tinfoil thing. The Israel—Saudi—Egyptian axis is 100% real. It sounds bizarre, but its true, been documentary verified, and supported by accounts of many diplomats of 3rd countries, US included. The open source investigatory journalists, among other things, established the fact of regular visits of their top officials to each other's countries. https://www.google.com/search?q=israel+saudi+axis https://www.google.com/search?q=israel+saudi+axis https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42094105 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42094105
- haltingproblem 6y ago
  So does the US, UK, France, Germany. By your definition there are no democracies in the world. I was talking about the glories of Persian civilization and its glories and you had to drag in the "evil US-Saud-Egyptian" axis. You got an axe to grind.
  - baybal2 6y ago
    Out of these three, I think one one goes as far as do so boldly, loudly, and on the record. > the "evil US-Saud-Egyptian" axis. You got an axe to grind. Of course I do. For as long as I have a dime of moral judgement, and integrity, I will. Spawning Laden, Qaeda, other tinpot outfits, funding rogue dictatorships of Bashirs, Sisis, Gaddafis, committing the unspeakable barbarity of 9.11 attack, and effectively breaking the world as it is, for the last 20 years. What out of this is not worth the outrage???
  - tacheiordache 6y ago
    Surely the Persian civilization was glorious and it could still shine. The problem was you mentioning Israel and denigrating the Palestinians. I urge you to take a second look at this issue, Israel is a terrible oppressor of these people.
tacheiordache 6y ago
No, you're getting downvoted for ignoring the Israeli treatment of Palestinians, something akin to the holocaust that was inflicted on the Jews by the Nazis is being repeated now on the Palestinians, who are technically their distant cousins. You are being downvoted because you ignore history conveniently to support an apartheid state like Israel.
- haltingproblem 6y ago
  Everything I said about the Palestinian elections is from Wikipedia and their direct words. You also ignore the fact that Arabs in Israel are the only Arabs (other than the Tunisian, occasionally) who can vote and have their own parties. Palestinians Arabs have had one national election and Israeli Arabs vote as often as Israel has elections which seems to be happening every year. Criticize Israel's conduct all you want but please come with facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Palestine
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - wombatmobile 6y ago
    The wikipedia article indicates an absence of democracy in Palestine, haltingproblem, wouldn't you agree? > Israel does not allow free exercise of political activities; checkpoints and separation walls hinder many social activities. The Legislative Council cannot properly function because free travel is impossible, especially between Gaza and the West Bank, regardless of hostilities between Fatah and Hamas. Members of the Palestinian Legislative Council and other politicians have been subject to lengthy detentions by Israel or even killed
StanislavPetrov 6y ago
>Edit: Getting down voted for stating facts. No, you're getting downvoted for stating falsehoods. Israel economically and militarily controls the occupied territories. Holding phony elections for "leaders" that are powerless to do anything because they wield no state power is not democracy. This would be true even if Gaza wasn't under an illegal blockade which prevents residents of Gaza from leaving without Israeli permission and prevents those from other countries from visiting or engaging in commerce with Gaza without Israeli permission. Reasonable people can disagree over what the way forward is in Israel, but people who deny reality in order to push their agenda are not reasonable.
Despegar 6y ago
Palestinians are an occupied people living under Israeli apartheid.
- starik36 6y ago
  There are a good chunk of Palestinians living under Arab control in Gaza. They also haven't voted since 2007. How do you explain that?
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    The result of their last election led to Israeli raids, detention of parliament/cabinet members, and increased sanctions from both Israel and the US. Why would they want a new election? Further, Israel and the US have both given signals saying that next time they'll ensure the results they want
    - sbmthakur 6y ago
      Fatah-Hamas conflict is deserves the blame for that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict
      - boomboomsubban 6y ago
        The events I listed were not part of the Fatah-Hamas conflict, they were retaliation from the US and Israel for Hamas winning the election.
        sbmthakur 6y ago
        The GP was talking about Palestinians being unable to vote. While it's easy to place blame Palestine issues on the US and Israel, in this case it's clear that elections are not taking place because Fatah and Hamas can't get their house in order.
michaelkeenan 6y ago
> Getting down voted for stating facts. I downvoted for the obnoxious phrasing of "Wrong. Try again." It goes against the first paragraph of the HN commenting guidelines: "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- haltingproblem 6y ago
  You were not responding to the snark but egging on a troll who made a serious political issue about an innocent mention of Israel in the pondering about the course of Persian history this century. Virtue signalers pop out of the woodwork each time Israel is mentioned. They don't ask everyone to preface each mention on Turkey with their persecution of the Kurds or their refusal to accept the Armenian Genocide. They don't take each mention of Egypt to talk about the Coptic exodus but each mention of Israel has to be prefaced.....this is insanity. I sincerely feel for the Palestinians because half the world is using them as their club for virtue signaling. This just eggs them to fight to the last Palestinian and give up every chance for peace and their own nation they ever had.
sudosysgen 6y ago
Neither Hamas not the PLO hold the power of the state, therefore there are not democratic elections, therefore Palestine isn't a democratic nation. The immediate reason why they cannot hold elections for their government is because of Israeli occupation. Therefore, there are people that Israel exercise the power of the State over that do not vote for the State, therefore it is not a democracy.
- starik36 6y ago
  I suppose you could argue that with PLO, but not Hamas. They are in complete control of Gaza have been since 2007. They could have held elections there anytime they wanted to. But they won't.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    According to Wikipedia : > Despite the 2005 Israeli disengagement from Gaza,[21] the United Nations, international human rights organisations, and the majority of governments and legal commentators consider the territory to be still occupied by Israel, supported by additional restrictions placed on Gaza by Egypt. Israel maintains direct external control over Gaza and indirect control over life within Gaza: it controls Gaza's air and maritime space, and six of Gaza's seven land crossings. It reserves the right to enter Gaza at will with its military and maintains a no-go buffer zone within the Gaza territory. Gaza is dependent on Israel for its water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.[21] The system of control imposed by Israel is described as an "indirect occupation". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip That being said, the occupation of Palestine nominally under PlO control is sufficient so that Israel is not a democracy.
    - sbmthakur 6y ago
      The US and UK won't be democratic by the same reasoning because they have "occupied" parts of Cuba and Argentina respectively. Not to forget that rockets are routinely fired into Israel from Gaza. So, it seems Israel has good reasons to exercise that kind of control over Gaza.

YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago

Unfortunately, "democracy" doesn't mean "liberal democracy" and it certainly doesn't mean "nice democracy". For instance, in the Athenian democracy women and metics (immigrants) couldn't vote and slavery was legal. In modern times, the USA, the model of modern democracies, has the largest military in the world (in history!) and does not hesitate to use it to crush lesser nations. I wouldn't be able to tell you what "democratic" means exactly (I'm not a political scientist) but I susepect having elections without limits on who can vote and who can stand for office, having independent courts and the rule of law are important criteria and under those Israel sure checks out as a democracy. Its people are free. It just happens to keep crushing some other people, who are not its own people, under its heel.

frenchyatwork 6y ago
I think what the GP was getting at was that having a sizable population of people living within the de-facto boundaries of a state who are unable to vote (in this case, because they lack citizenship) makes it less democratic. That's a slightly different problem than the fact that democracies can be terrible if the voters choose terrible things.