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The CIA/MI5 coup is fascinating not only because it overthrow a democratically elected government of a Middle Eastern country in 1953 (!) but also because of it
by haltingproblem 6y ago
The CIA/MI5 coup is fascinating not only because it overthrow a democratically elected government of a Middle Eastern country in 1953 (!) but also because of its consequences. There is not a single democratic government in the ME sans Israel. No, tiny Tunisia does not count, it is in the Maghreb (N. Africa).
What would the middle east look like if the Mosaddegh government had continued? No revolution, No Ayatollah, no Iran-Iraq war, no Hezbollah? Instead we got the Shah who forced his people to modernize, secret police pulling veils off women was common and generally unleashed a reign that was anathema to most of the conservative population outside Tehran. Most of the anger you see is towards the US is from that reign rather than the coup.
The Iranians who are Persians, and not Arabs, have a civilizational history going back 1000s of years. Expat Persians have achieved great success in the US and UK. Going further back, the Zoroastrians, who fled the Islamic conquest and arrived in India more than a millennia ago are the richest, most educated and economically successful minority group by an order of magnitude, or two.
The Shah's reign lasted 25 years. A generation that grew up under the Shah's tyranny led the revolution in 1979. The Islamic revolution is now 40 years old. There have been almost two generations
that grew up under the Islamic govt's misrule and grandiose projects of power projection. Hopefully they can take charge and lead Iran back to civilizational greatness. Iran, the middle east and the world needs it.
And I would really like to visit the gardens of Shiraz or the markets of Isfahan which have been around for 1000s of years ;)
Edit: As pointed out in the comments, instead of Arab world, I should have used Arab speaking. There are Arab speakers who are Arab and there are Arab speakers who are not Arab.
- quercusgrisea 6y ago>There is not a single democratic govt in the ME sans Israel The millions of Palestinians unable to vote for the government that controls their movement, trade, and lives in general would probably disagree with your characterization of Israel as a democracy.
- haltingproblem 6y agoWrong. Try again. There are 450~ million Arabs and you chose to focus on the 4.5 million Palestinians who voted in elections in 2006. These elections bought Hamas to power in in Gaza and PLO in the West Bank. Gaza is autonomous in terms of governance and has chosen to not hold elections since the last one in 2006. Neither has the PLO. They both plead unable to hold elections because they want to hang on to power though the international community wants them to. Edit: Getting down voted for stating facts.
- mkoubaa 6y agoPalestinians are a distinct ethnic group that happens to speak Arabic
- mythrwy 6y agoThank you! From what I've read the Palestinians are nominally at least descended from the Philistines of biblical history. The Philistines were an Indo European people originally from Crete. (of course there is much mixing after such a time, so "Arab" might not be completely off base).
- mkoubaa 6y agoThey didn't just mix with Arabs. Many Palestinians are descendants from the 12 tribes of Israel but have been disowned be the rest of those tribes because their ancestors changed religions.
- mmrezaie 6y agoI searched and I cannot see how you found 450 mil for population of arabs in te world. I even counted Turkey, Iran, and Pakistan and none of these are arbs. Also, I talked to a palistinian friend and she thinks palistinians did not vote for Hamas becasue that was the choise. The other ones were just so corrupt. Any way your sentimate is just too reductive for a very complicated region.
- haltingproblem 6y agoDid you count Egypt and Morocco and the rest of N. Africa? I might be off by 10% and most of these countries don't exactly hold a census.
- mtalantikite 6y agoAlgerian here. While there are certainly Arabs in the Maghreb, we’re not all Arabs and don’t generally identify as Arab. My family identifies as Amazigh. Most Algerians will tell you they’re Algerian, not Arab. Many friends from other parts of the Maghreb identify similarly.
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y agoUnfortunately, "democracy" doesn't mean "liberal democracy" and it certainly doesn't mean "nice democracy". For instance, in the Athenian democracy women and metics (immigrants) couldn't vote and slavery was legal. In modern times, the USA, the model of modern democracies, has the largest military in the world (in history!) and does not hesitate to use it to crush lesser nations. I wouldn't be able to tell you what "democratic" means exactly (I'm not a political scientist) but I susepect having elections without limits on who can vote and who can stand for office, having independent courts and the rule of law are important criteria and under those Israel sure checks out as a democracy. Its people are free. It just happens to keep crushing some other people, who are not its own people, under its heel.
- frenchyatwork 6y agoI think what the GP was getting at was that having a sizable population of people living within the de-facto boundaries of a state who are unable to vote (in this case, because they lack citizenship) makes it less democratic. That's a slightly different problem than the fact that democracies can be terrible if the voters choose terrible things.
- sudosysgen 6y agoTo be fair, "Arab" world pretty much just means "Arab speaking and cultured" world. Ethnic Arabs are few and far between.
- dingoegret 6y ago>There is not a single democratic government in the ME sans Israel. This is a tiring propaganda point and no one buys it anymore.