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> To "live" at what standard of living? Decent. Roosevelt: """ In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this coun

> To "live" at what standard of living? Decent. Roosevelt: """ In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By business I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living. """ > A smartphone? Yes > A recent one? Define "recent". One that has internet connectivity, allows you to install apps that are increasingly required today (banks, school, mail, auth etc.) > What standard of medical care? All of it except cosmetic. A.k.a. universal healthcare. > What about entertainment? What about it? Define entertainment. Let's do this way more broadly: how about vacations, sick leaves and parental leave? > What if someone wants only to eat organic, fair trade food? Yes. The poor cannot escape bad eating habits because (especially in the US) more often than not they have no access to healthy food, and healthy food is much more expensive than current government assistance can cover.

OCASM 6y ago
Demanding other people take care of you even against their will and using the power of the state to achieve so. How is that not slavery?
- dmitriid 6y ago
  Demanding other people live in perpetual poverty with no safety nets, how is that not slavery. BTW: Are you American, and do you by any chance identify as Christian? Because I've only seen two groups of people so hellbent on never helping their fellow man. American Christians and American libertarians.
  - tick_tock_tick 6y ago
    You must have lived a horribly isolated life if those are the only groups you've ever seen this behavior from. Take a look at the EU and austerity measures if you want to see this kind of behavior on a large scale.
    - dmitriid 6y ago
      > Take a look at the EU and austerity measures I've yet to see an austerity measure that strips away even the most basic protections the way US does. > this kind of behavior on a large scale. The US: 40 million people one month away from eviction. 30 million people are one medical emergency away from life-time of crippling debt. Americans: oh, look at austerity measures in Europe.
  - OCASM 6y ago
    Could be that I do want people to improve their lives and just happen to disagree with your methods? No, disagreeing with your must mean I want people to stay in poverty forever... Learn from immigrants: they earn their way to a better life by applying themselves and helping each other.
    - dmitriid 6y ago
      OCASM: Learn from immigrants, and help each other Also OCASM: You can't make me help other people, it's slavery
hajile 6y ago
> All of it except cosmetic. A.k.a. universal healthcare. I really wish people were more educated about this. In 2013, the US Government spent $4,981 PER PERSON (only $4,500 was privately funded per person) [1]. That is more government money per person than Sweden, Germany, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, etc (more than almost every first-world country). The US has a pricing problem and a healthy-living problem. Almost 2/3 of all healthcare spending goes toward the obese 1/3 of the population [2]. Under 45, costs are less than 3k per person per year on average. The next 2 decades see prices soar to over double at almost 6.5k and over 65 they almost double again to 11.3k [3]. Why should I have to pay twice as much because someone else is overeating? Put more interestingly, if obese people were denied government funds, the current amount of government spending at current prices would not only pay for EVERYONE, but would even have money left over (most likely gradually reaching equilibrium as those people lost weight to gain coverage). [1] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/u-s-spends-public-money-healthcare-sweden-canada/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/u-s-spends-public-money-hea... [2] https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.89.8.1194 https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.89.8.... [3] https://www.registerednursing.org/healthcare-costs-by-age/ https://www.registerednursing.org/healthcare-costs-by-age/
- dmitriid 6y ago
  > Why should I have to pay twice as much because someone else is overeating Why do you pay for car insurance just because someone is driving recklessly? ;) Also: as you correctly pointed out, the US spends more on healthcare than any other country. But people in those countries pay for obese people, too. And still... Healthcare is a complex problem which should also include solutions for crazy amounts of sugar in American foods and drinks, better food in schools, better access to healthy foods for low-income families etc. etc.
  - hajile 6y ago
    > Why do you pay for car insurance just because someone is driving recklessly? ;) I've paid much higher premiums than my sister simply because of my sex. If I get a speeding ticket, reckless driving, at-fault accident, or any number of things, my insurance will skyrocket enough to cover my added costs to the system (interesting, in my earlier years with my perfect record and despite my sister's many speeding tickets, I still wound up paying more for insurance for an equivalent vehicle). EVERY insurance increases premiums for high-risk situations EXCEPT health insurance because reasons. > But people in those countries pay for obese people, too. And still... Obesity in the US happens at a much higher rate than other countries. My main point was that we are already super-socialized and the real issue lies elsewhere.

OCASM 6y ago

Demanding other people take care of you even against their will and using the power of the state to achieve so. How is that not slavery?

dmitriid 6y ago
Demanding other people live in perpetual poverty with no safety nets, how is that not slavery. BTW: Are you American, and do you by any chance identify as Christian? Because I've only seen two groups of people so hellbent on never helping their fellow man. American Christians and American libertarians.
- tick_tock_tick 6y ago
  You must have lived a horribly isolated life if those are the only groups you've ever seen this behavior from. Take a look at the EU and austerity measures if you want to see this kind of behavior on a large scale.
  - dmitriid 6y ago
    > Take a look at the EU and austerity measures I've yet to see an austerity measure that strips away even the most basic protections the way US does. > this kind of behavior on a large scale. The US: 40 million people one month away from eviction. 30 million people are one medical emergency away from life-time of crippling debt. Americans: oh, look at austerity measures in Europe.
- OCASM 6y ago
  Could be that I do want people to improve their lives and just happen to disagree with your methods? No, disagreeing with your must mean I want people to stay in poverty forever... Learn from immigrants: they earn their way to a better life by applying themselves and helping each other.
  - dmitriid 6y ago
    OCASM: Learn from immigrants, and help each other Also OCASM: You can't make me help other people, it's slavery

hajile 6y ago

> All of it except cosmetic. A.k.a. universal healthcare. I really wish people were more educated about this. In 2013, the US Government spent $4,981 PER PERSON (only $4,500 was privately funded per person) [1]. That is more government money per person than Sweden, Germany, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, etc (more than almost every first-world country). The US has a pricing problem and a healthy-living problem. Almost 2/3 of all healthcare spending goes toward the obese 1/3 of the population [2]. Under 45, costs are less than 3k per person per year on average. The next 2 decades see prices soar to over double at almost 6.5k and over 65 they almost double again to 11.3k [3]. Why should I have to pay twice as much because someone else is overeating? Put more interestingly, if obese people were denied government funds, the current amount of government spending at current prices would not only pay for EVERYONE, but would even have money left over (most likely gradually reaching equilibrium as those people lost weight to gain coverage). [1] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/u-s-spends-public-money-healthcare-sweden-canada/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/u-s-spends-public-money-hea... [2] https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.89.8.1194 https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.89.8.... [3] https://www.registerednursing.org/healthcare-costs-by-age/ https://www.registerednursing.org/healthcare-costs-by-age/

dmitriid 6y ago
> Why should I have to pay twice as much because someone else is overeating Why do you pay for car insurance just because someone is driving recklessly? ;) Also: as you correctly pointed out, the US spends more on healthcare than any other country. But people in those countries pay for obese people, too. And still... Healthcare is a complex problem which should also include solutions for crazy amounts of sugar in American foods and drinks, better food in schools, better access to healthy foods for low-income families etc. etc.
- hajile 6y ago
  > Why do you pay for car insurance just because someone is driving recklessly? ;) I've paid much higher premiums than my sister simply because of my sex. If I get a speeding ticket, reckless driving, at-fault accident, or any number of things, my insurance will skyrocket enough to cover my added costs to the system (interesting, in my earlier years with my perfect record and despite my sister's many speeding tickets, I still wound up paying more for insurance for an equivalent vehicle). EVERY insurance increases premiums for high-risk situations EXCEPT health insurance because reasons. > But people in those countries pay for obese people, too. And still... Obesity in the US happens at a much higher rate than other countries. My main point was that we are already super-socialized and the real issue lies elsewhere.