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What's the difference between your local grocery store clerk, and a Hollywood actor? They both likely have cars, homes and an iphone. Sure, your Hollywood acto

What's the difference between your local grocery store clerk, and a Hollywood actor? They both likely have cars, homes and an iphone. Sure, your Hollywood actor is probably driving an exotic sports car and their iphone is diamond studded, but fundamentally, what does it matter? > housing, food, education and health. Any society where anyone can't get those things by asking for them is not fair I agree in the general but I suspect we disagree quite differently on the details. We do provide housing for the poor, and short term homelessness outcomes are actually generally positive - we tend to get people who lose their home back into another house. We provide free education through a high school diploma and community college in most areas is exceedingly affordable with massive scholarship opportunities available for ivy leagues. You can walk into any hospital and it's illegal for them to refuse you treatment. Does this mean our society is without fault? Of course not - we've shown repeatedly that we're terrible at finding real solutions for the persistently homeless (and no, shoving them into homes doesn't actually fix their problems as much as it fixes the stats), and healthcare is at best described as "horrifically abberant". And we should fix those things. But that some Hollywood starlett is flying around in a gulfstream has nothing to do with those fundamental problems - it is not a lack of resources but a lack of willingness and deep understanding of the problem space. It's easy to blame the wealthy, it's much harder to solve the actual problem set.

bobthepanda 6y ago
> We provide free education through a high school diploma and community college in most areas Can you actually do anything with just an associate's? In my experience, most places that require college degrees require a minimum of a bachelor's.
- vorpalhex 6y ago
  My local community college offers some bachelor degrees, and an associates degree can be a meaningful life change even if it's just a move to a management position.
biomodel 6y ago
And this is why UBI was supported by right leaning economists like Milton Friedman. If we believe that people in wealthy societies should have a minimal standard of living including basic food, housing and health care then we can provide it through the market in the form of a basic income It will avoid the perverse incentives that lead people to get costly health care in the ER (which is then covered by other patients) instead of having health insurance and receiving preventative care It can prevent people from avoiding getting a higher income lest they start earning too much to qualify for the social programs they depend on No UBI won't fix all problems - but it may very well pay for itself through better externalities
- manigandham 6y ago
  Friedman proposed a negative income tax which is different, and arguably better, than a standard flat payment.
  - balfirevic 6y ago
    It's barely distinguishable from UBI for any practical purpose.
    - manigandham 6y ago
      Not really. It scales with income, motivates working, is more fair, and avoids a blanket handout which would just raise the prices of everything in response.
      - balfirevic 6y ago
        I think you are confused about how either UBI or negative income tax works. The most important difference is that negative income tax would do payouts once a year, and even that is not a hard requirement. Other differences are accounting differences and not practical differences in how much money people have available (as they can be made identical by tweaking the tax rates and tax brackets).
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
danans 6y ago
> What's the difference between your local grocery store clerk, and a Hollywood actor? Well, if you didn't know, there's stuff like this: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/college-bribery-scandal-goes-far-deeper-alleged-hollywood-bribes-1194910 https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/college-bribery-scand... The special access and leg-up in society offered to people with very high wealth (whether an actor, a corporate CxO, or someone who inherits a business empire) is huge, and entire systems are set up to tend exclusively to their needs and the preservation of those advantages.
clawedjird 6y ago
I agree that simply blaming the wealthy isn't the solution to these problems, but your perspective regarding the plight of the American poor seems a bit rosy to me. > We do provide housing for the poor Waiting lists for both subsidized housing and homeless shelters are overflowing in many places. Have you ever tried to obtain housing as a person with limited resources? > short term homelessness outcomes are actually generally positive - we tend to get people who lose their home back into another house. What do you mean by positive? That most people don't stay homeless forever? Sure, that's better than the alternative, but you're ignoring the consequences of becoming homeless in the first place (ex. losing a job because you don't have a place to shower, sleep, or are simply overwhelmed due to your position, eviction records that make it difficult to rent again, exposure to unsafe conditions, etc.), as well as the factors that contribute to that phenomenon. > community college in most areas is exceedingly affordable with massive scholarship opportunities available for ivy leagues. Community college is not as cheap as many imagine it to be. Tuition typically runs $3 - 5,000/year, which doesn't include fees, course materials, or, most notably, living expenses. Financial aid isn't as generous as many would expect - as you'll see below, a grocery store clerk earning $22,646/year would receive less than $1,500 in grant aid (while being expected to contribute ~ $4,700/annually). Loans can help, but they can also become a considerable burden, especially for the 47% percent of college students who don't end up graduating within six years (or, ever, for the majority of those students). [10] Perhaps surprisingly, the typical community college graduate actually takes around 5.5 (calendar) years to earn their associate's degree (assuming no participation in "dual enrollment"). [11] If they continue on to earn their bachelor's degree, the overall process typically takes more than 8 (calendar) years. [11] That's a long time to be in a financially-tenuous position. I may as well ignore your comment regarding the Ivy League, as the amount of poor Americans who will find it relevant is virtually zero. > You can walk into any hospital and it's illegal for them to refuse you treatment. ...for them to refuse you treatment for a life-threatening injury, not regular checkups, non-essential treatment or preventative medicine. And if you are treated for an emergency, you'll be billed for it later. Although the ACA has made things much better for Americans, you can't simply walk into a hospital and expect free healthcare without health insurance. > What's the difference between your local grocery store clerk, and a Hollywood actor? > They both likely have cars, homes and an iphone. If your grocery-store clerk is a middle/upper-middle class teenager whose parents give them those things, sure. Otherwise, this assumption seems pretty unrealistic to me. Some quick googling seems to confirm my assessment... According to Glassdoor, the average American grocery clerk makes $22,646/year ($1,532/month) after taxes. [1] Abodo says that rent for the median one-bedroom apartment in the US cost $1,078/month last year. [2] That doesn't include utilities, which average around $240/month for renters. [3] That leaves your grocery clerk with $214 to use for all additional expenses each month. Owning a (cheap) car costs around $486/month overall, according to Nerdwallet (including a $111 monthly car payment [4] and $118 for car insurance [5], plus misc. expenses). [6] Now this grocery clerk is going $272 further into debt each month. If they want an iPhone and a ("cheap") phone plan from a major carrier, that will cost an additional $90/month (assuming they buy the cheapest iPhone 11 and keep it for two years - $700 / 24 - and opt for the cheapest standard phone plan [7]). At that point, they're spending $362 more than they earn every month and they haven't even spent anything on food, household goods, clothing, entertainment, or education! Assuming this person wanted to improve their financial situation by attending community college (average tuition: $3,660 for 2018/2019 year [8]), they'd be eligible to receive around $1400 in Federal Pell Grants (depending on their state) and up to $1,465 in Federal Work-study benefits (assuming their college participated in the program and that they could manage working two jobs while going to school full-time), plus up to $9,500 in Direct Stafford Loans (note: not dischargeable through bankruptcy). [9] However, they would still be expected to contribute around $4,700/year toward their education. 1. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/grocery-clerk-salary-SRCH_KO0,13.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/grocery-clerk-salary-SRCH... 2. https://www.abodo.com/blog/2019-annual-rent-report/ https://www.abodo.com/blog/2019-annual-rent-report/ 3. https://www.apartmentlist.com/renter-life/average-utility-bill https://www.apartmentlist.com/renter-life/average-utility-bi... 4. Calculated using https://www.cars.com/car-loan-calculator/ https://www.cars.com/car-loan-calculator/ (assuming $5,000 car price/$500 down payment/7% sales tax/4.67% interest rate/48 month term) 5. Assuming average American cost in 2020 https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/car-insurance/average-cost-of-car-insurance https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/car-insurance/average-co... 6. https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/auto-loans/total-cost-owning-car https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/auto-loans/total-co... 7. https://www.consumerreports.org/cell-phone-service-providers/best-low-cost-cell-phone-plans/ https://www.consumerreports.org/cell-phone-service-providers... 8. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/12/tuition-at-community-colleges-is-3660-a-year-on-average.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/12/tuition-at-community-college... 9. Calculated using above income info via https://fafsa.ed.gov/spa/fafsa4c/#/landing https://fafsa.ed.gov/spa/fafsa4c/#/landing (Note: "Expected Family Contribution" (EFC) ended up being around $4,700/year) 10. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/freshman-year/just-over-half-all-college-students-actually-graduate-report-finds-n465606 https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/freshman-year/just-over-half... 11. https://nscresearchcenter.org/signaturereport11/ https://nscresearchcenter.org/signaturereport11/
ric2b 6y ago
> What's the difference between your local grocery store clerk, and a Hollywood actor? One has to keep working to live a comfortable life, the other doesn't (and neither will their kids).

bobthepanda 6y ago

> We provide free education through a high school diploma and community college in most areas Can you actually do anything with just an associate's? In my experience, most places that require college degrees require a minimum of a bachelor's.

vorpalhex 6y ago
My local community college offers some bachelor degrees, and an associates degree can be a meaningful life change even if it's just a move to a management position.

biomodel 6y ago

And this is why UBI was supported by right leaning economists like Milton Friedman. If we believe that people in wealthy societies should have a minimal standard of living including basic food, housing and health care then we can provide it through the market in the form of a basic income It will avoid the perverse incentives that lead people to get costly health care in the ER (which is then covered by other patients) instead of having health insurance and receiving preventative care It can prevent people from avoiding getting a higher income lest they start earning too much to qualify for the social programs they depend on No UBI won't fix all problems - but it may very well pay for itself through better externalities

manigandham 6y ago
Friedman proposed a negative income tax which is different, and arguably better, than a standard flat payment.
- balfirevic 6y ago
  It's barely distinguishable from UBI for any practical purpose.
  - manigandham 6y ago
    Not really. It scales with income, motivates working, is more fair, and avoids a blanket handout which would just raise the prices of everything in response.
    - balfirevic 6y ago
      I think you are confused about how either UBI or negative income tax works. The most important difference is that negative income tax would do payouts once a year, and even that is not a hard requirement. Other differences are accounting differences and not practical differences in how much money people have available (as they can be made identical by tweaking the tax rates and tax brackets).

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

danans 6y ago

> What's the difference between your local grocery store clerk, and a Hollywood actor? Well, if you didn't know, there's stuff like this: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/college-bribery-scandal-goes-far-deeper-alleged-hollywood-bribes-1194910 https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/college-bribery-scand... The special access and leg-up in society offered to people with very high wealth (whether an actor, a corporate CxO, or someone who inherits a business empire) is huge, and entire systems are set up to tend exclusively to their needs and the preservation of those advantages.

clawedjird 6y ago

I agree that simply blaming the wealthy isn't the solution to these problems, but your perspective regarding the plight of the American poor seems a bit rosy to me. > We do provide housing for the poor Waiting lists for both subsidized housing and homeless shelters are overflowing in many places. Have you ever tried to obtain housing as a person with limited resources? > short term homelessness outcomes are actually generally positive - we tend to get people who lose their home back into another house. What do you mean by positive? That most people don't stay homeless forever? Sure, that's better than the alternative, but you're ignoring the consequences of becoming homeless in the first place (ex. losing a job because you don't have a place to shower, sleep, or are simply overwhelmed due to your position, eviction records that make it difficult to rent again, exposure to unsafe conditions, etc.), as well as the factors that contribute to that phenomenon. > community college in most areas is exceedingly affordable with massive scholarship opportunities available for ivy leagues. Community college is not as cheap as many imagine it to be. Tuition typically runs $3 - 5,000/year, which doesn't include fees, course materials, or, most notably, living expenses. Financial aid isn't as generous as many would expect - as you'll see below, a grocery store clerk earning $22,646/year would receive less than $1,500 in grant aid (while being expected to contribute ~ $4,700/annually). Loans can help, but they can also become a considerable burden, especially for the 47% percent of college students who don't end up graduating within six years (or, ever, for the majority of those students). [10] Perhaps surprisingly, the typical community college graduate actually takes around 5.5 (calendar) years to earn their associate's degree (assuming no participation in "dual enrollment"). [11] If they continue on to earn their bachelor's degree, the overall process typically takes more than 8 (calendar) years. [11] That's a long time to be in a financially-tenuous position. I may as well ignore your comment regarding the Ivy League, as the amount of poor Americans who will find it relevant is virtually zero. > You can walk into any hospital and it's illegal for them to refuse you treatment. ...for them to refuse you treatment for a life-threatening injury, not regular checkups, non-essential treatment or preventative medicine. And if you are treated for an emergency, you'll be billed for it later. Although the ACA has made things much better for Americans, you can't simply walk into a hospital and expect free healthcare without health insurance. > What's the difference between your local grocery store clerk, and a Hollywood actor? > They both likely have cars, homes and an iphone. If your grocery-store clerk is a middle/upper-middle class teenager whose parents give them those things, sure. Otherwise, this assumption seems pretty unrealistic to me. Some quick googling seems to confirm my assessment... According to Glassdoor, the average American grocery clerk makes $22,646/year ($1,532/month) after taxes. [1] Abodo says that rent for the median one-bedroom apartment in the US cost $1,078/month last year. [2] That doesn't include utilities, which average around $240/month for renters. [3] That leaves your grocery clerk with $214 to use for all additional expenses each month. Owning a (cheap) car costs around $486/month overall, according to Nerdwallet (including a $111 monthly car payment [4] and $118 for car insurance [5], plus misc. expenses). [6] Now this grocery clerk is going $272 further into debt each month. If they want an iPhone and a ("cheap") phone plan from a major carrier, that will cost an additional $90/month (assuming they buy the cheapest iPhone 11 and keep it for two years - $700 / 24 - and opt for the cheapest standard phone plan [7]). At that point, they're spending $362 more than they earn every month and they haven't even spent anything on food, household goods, clothing, entertainment, or education! Assuming this person wanted to improve their financial situation by attending community college (average tuition: $3,660 for 2018/2019 year [8]), they'd be eligible to receive around $1400 in Federal Pell Grants (depending on their state) and up to $1,465 in Federal Work-study benefits (assuming their college participated in the program and that they could manage working two jobs while going to school full-time), plus up to $9,500 in Direct Stafford Loans (note: not dischargeable through bankruptcy). [9] However, they would still be expected to contribute around $4,700/year toward their education. 1. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/grocery-clerk-salary-SRCH_KO0,13.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/grocery-clerk-salary-SRCH... 2. https://www.abodo.com/blog/2019-annual-rent-report/ https://www.abodo.com/blog/2019-annual-rent-report/ 3. https://www.apartmentlist.com/renter-life/average-utility-bill https://www.apartmentlist.com/renter-life/average-utility-bi... 4. Calculated using https://www.cars.com/car-loan-calculator/ https://www.cars.com/car-loan-calculator/ (assuming $5,000 car price/$500 down payment/7% sales tax/4.67% interest rate/48 month term) 5. Assuming average American cost in 2020 https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/car-insurance/average-cost-of-car-insurance https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/car-insurance/average-co... 6. https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/auto-loans/total-cost-owning-car https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/auto-loans/total-co... 7. https://www.consumerreports.org/cell-phone-service-providers/best-low-cost-cell-phone-plans/ https://www.consumerreports.org/cell-phone-service-providers... 8. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/12/tuition-at-community-colleges-is-3660-a-year-on-average.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/12/tuition-at-community-college... 9. Calculated using above income info via https://fafsa.ed.gov/spa/fafsa4c/#/landing https://fafsa.ed.gov/spa/fafsa4c/#/landing (Note: "Expected Family Contribution" (EFC) ended up being around $4,700/year) 10. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/freshman-year/just-over-half-all-college-students-actually-graduate-report-finds-n465606 https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/freshman-year/just-over-half... 11. https://nscresearchcenter.org/signaturereport11/ https://nscresearchcenter.org/signaturereport11/

ric2b 6y ago

> What's the difference between your local grocery store clerk, and a Hollywood actor? One has to keep working to live a comfortable life, the other doesn't (and neither will their kids).