4 ms·

Is the freedom to accept a contract for poverty wages to avoid starvation a desirable feature in our society?

by nakedlunch 6y ago

jlawson 6y ago
Since we have a social safety net, nobody needs to do such to 'avoid starvation' so the question makes no sense.
flyingfences 6y ago
Is the alternative - a total absence of contracts offered to those people - a desirable feature in our society?
tastyfreeze 6y ago
If labor costs less products as a result cost less. How do you reconcile your view with the success of Singapore? A country with no minimum wage and a comparatively free market. There is income disparity in every time and every place. The question to ask is do the rules of the game allow anybody to succeed. Minimum wage is a rule that says some people just don't get to play.
- gjulianm 6y ago
  > How do you reconcile your view with the success of Singapore? A country general success does not equal the success of its poor people. There are not many income inequality stats of Singapore, but the ones I've seen [1] actually put Singapore with a similar income inequality to the US. Furthermore, it is a small country (5M people) with a pretty high GDP per capita (8th in the world). I don't think you can extract too many conclusions that would be applicable to other, bigger countries. > The question to ask is do the rules of the game allow anybody to succeed. Minimum wage is a rule that says some people just don't get to play. And without a livable minimum wage, you'll get people that are working full time for peanuts. They won't be able to save, get healthcare, provide their kids with good education, etc. Are those people succeeding? 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...
  - tastyfreeze 6y ago
    In this discussion a country's population is irrelevant. For a small country with a GDP per capita higher than the United States only 55 years after independence I would say they are doing pretty damn good. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)... There is no requirement that everybody succeed at the same level. The measure of a country's success is improvement of society over time. Has the general quality of life improved for the people of Singapore over the last 55 years? I think that is a resounding yes.
    - gjulianm 6y ago
      > In this discussion a country's population is irrelevant. It's not. You'll see that a lot of the top companies in Singapore are operating at global level while headquartered in Singapore. It's a little bit like looking only at the economy of the main US cities. > There is no requirement that everybody succeed at the same level. The measure of a country's success is improvement of society over time. Inequality is a pretty important measure. What society is better, one where everybody earns two times a livable wage or another where 25% earn eight times a livable wage and the 75% remaining are in poverty?
      - tastyfreeze 6y ago
        There is always inequality in all aspects of life. We all do not perform on the same level. Looking at a specific point in time and comparing inequality is a poor measure of society. The only measure that matters is improvement over time. Upon independence, "Singapore faced a small domestic market, and high levels of unemployment and poverty. 70 percent of Singapore's households lived in badly overcrowded conditions, and a third of its people squatted in slums on the city fringes. Unemployment averaged 14 percent, GDP per capita was US$516, and half of the population was illiterate." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Singapore#Independence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Singapore#Independe...] Compared to today, Singapore has about 1000 homeless, 3.16 persons per household, a literacy rate of 97.3%, GDP per capita of $602 billion, an unemployment rate of 4.11% and a median household income of $9,293. The income distribution isn't bad either. From what I could find the cost of living (minus rent) for an individual is $575 a month. https://blog.seedly.sg/average-singaporean-household-income-stand/ https://blog.seedly.sg/average-singaporean-household-income-... The better society is the one where everyone has an opportunity to improve their lot in life by satisfying a need of others.
- karpierz 6y ago
  Do you think Singapore is a free market? What do you think of their housing policy?
  - tastyfreeze 6y ago
    Thank you for pointing that out. That housing market is certainly not free. Not an aspect of Singapore I had read about before. Other than my opinion that the needs of the people would have been better met with a free housing market. I don't have much to say on it.
OCASM 6y ago
Is starvation preferable to getting a low wage job? You start somewhere. Minimum wage laws just reduce the amount of opportunities low skill workers can choose from.
- brendoelfrendo 6y ago
  This could just go in circles. What benefit does a job that doesn't provide enough of a wage to survive actually provide to the employee, except a way to waste their time while they accrue debt and wait for an emergency expenditure to bankrupt them?
  - OCASM 6y ago
    If only there were less regulations, allowing the creation of more businesses which would compete for this man's labor, increasing the wages as a result.

Is the freedom to accept a contract for poverty wages to avoid starvation a desirable feature in our society?

jlawson 6y ago

Since we have a social safety net, nobody needs to do such to 'avoid starvation' so the question makes no sense.

flyingfences 6y ago

Is the alternative - a total absence of contracts offered to those people - a desirable feature in our society?

tastyfreeze 6y ago

If labor costs less products as a result cost less. How do you reconcile your view with the success of Singapore? A country with no minimum wage and a comparatively free market. There is income disparity in every time and every place. The question to ask is do the rules of the game allow anybody to succeed. Minimum wage is a rule that says some people just don't get to play.

gjulianm 6y ago
> How do you reconcile your view with the success of Singapore? A country general success does not equal the success of its poor people. There are not many income inequality stats of Singapore, but the ones I've seen [1] actually put Singapore with a similar income inequality to the US. Furthermore, it is a small country (5M people) with a pretty high GDP per capita (8th in the world). I don't think you can extract too many conclusions that would be applicable to other, bigger countries. > The question to ask is do the rules of the game allow anybody to succeed. Minimum wage is a rule that says some people just don't get to play. And without a livable minimum wage, you'll get people that are working full time for peanuts. They won't be able to save, get healthcare, provide their kids with good education, etc. Are those people succeeding? 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...
- tastyfreeze 6y ago
  In this discussion a country's population is irrelevant. For a small country with a GDP per capita higher than the United States only 55 years after independence I would say they are doing pretty damn good. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)... There is no requirement that everybody succeed at the same level. The measure of a country's success is improvement of society over time. Has the general quality of life improved for the people of Singapore over the last 55 years? I think that is a resounding yes.
  - gjulianm 6y ago
    > In this discussion a country's population is irrelevant. It's not. You'll see that a lot of the top companies in Singapore are operating at global level while headquartered in Singapore. It's a little bit like looking only at the economy of the main US cities. > There is no requirement that everybody succeed at the same level. The measure of a country's success is improvement of society over time. Inequality is a pretty important measure. What society is better, one where everybody earns two times a livable wage or another where 25% earn eight times a livable wage and the 75% remaining are in poverty?
    - tastyfreeze 6y ago
      There is always inequality in all aspects of life. We all do not perform on the same level. Looking at a specific point in time and comparing inequality is a poor measure of society. The only measure that matters is improvement over time. Upon independence, "Singapore faced a small domestic market, and high levels of unemployment and poverty. 70 percent of Singapore's households lived in badly overcrowded conditions, and a third of its people squatted in slums on the city fringes. Unemployment averaged 14 percent, GDP per capita was US$516, and half of the population was illiterate." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Singapore#Independence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Singapore#Independe...] Compared to today, Singapore has about 1000 homeless, 3.16 persons per household, a literacy rate of 97.3%, GDP per capita of $602 billion, an unemployment rate of 4.11% and a median household income of $9,293. The income distribution isn't bad either. From what I could find the cost of living (minus rent) for an individual is $575 a month. https://blog.seedly.sg/average-singaporean-household-income-stand/ https://blog.seedly.sg/average-singaporean-household-income-... The better society is the one where everyone has an opportunity to improve their lot in life by satisfying a need of others.
karpierz 6y ago
Do you think Singapore is a free market? What do you think of their housing policy?
- tastyfreeze 6y ago
  Thank you for pointing that out. That housing market is certainly not free. Not an aspect of Singapore I had read about before. Other than my opinion that the needs of the people would have been better met with a free housing market. I don't have much to say on it.

OCASM 6y ago

Is starvation preferable to getting a low wage job? You start somewhere. Minimum wage laws just reduce the amount of opportunities low skill workers can choose from.

brendoelfrendo 6y ago
This could just go in circles. What benefit does a job that doesn't provide enough of a wage to survive actually provide to the employee, except a way to waste their time while they accrue debt and wait for an emergency expenditure to bankrupt them?
- OCASM 6y ago
  If only there were less regulations, allowing the creation of more businesses which would compete for this man's labor, increasing the wages as a result.