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I'm amazed how dismissive all the comments are here. I read the article and it seems totally normal for a little kid not to be able to do "school" on a laptop.

I'm amazed how dismissive all the comments are here. I read the article and it seems totally normal for a little kid not to be able to do "school" on a laptop. Kindergarten is so much different than later years of schooling. It's not about lectures and subjects, or homework and tests. It's about much more fundamental lessons, interspersed with creativity, socialization, and learning to be separated from your parents. These are fundamental qualities that require physical interaction! You give me the most well-behaved kid, and I'll show you a hellion when I attempt to sit them in front of a boring "remote learning" session for a few hours.

coderholic 6y ago
Me too! We're jugging 3 kids and working from home, and I thought the article was on point. My guess is that most of the dismissive comments are from people without kids!
- dpcan 6y ago
  I have 4 kids. I work from home. My wife works 11 hours a day away from the house. I feel like this world is full of "can't" people who aren't willing to do the extra work. We seem to have enough time to comment on Hacker News. To argue about masks on Facebook. To watch every TikTok, and spend hours on Twitter. But put in the necessary work to make learning at home productive. Nope, can't do that. We have put in the work at our house to make e-learning possible, and it can be effective, and kids can focus, and kids can wear masks, and kids CAN still LEARN during difficult times - but it takes sacrifices from parents, be it sleep, entertainment, our phones, TV, or even time off work and living lean. But I'm ready for it... let's hear some CAN DO stuff from the HN community!
  - coderholic 6y ago
    I don't think the point is it can't be done. I think it's just acknowledging that it's HARD. Both for the kids, and the parents.
    - dpcan 6y ago
      What the hell is wrong with HARD???? Why is everyone so lazy? We are going backwards as a society. I was raised thinking that if it wasn't hard to do, it wasn't worth doing. Every uphill path should not be looked at as an arduous journey, but as an adventure with an amazing reward at the top.
      - throwaways885 6y ago
        I like your take on life - thanks for reminding me of this little fact.
        dpcan 6y ago
        I assume this is sarcasm, but if not, prepare for down-votes because absolutely nobody agrees with me.
      - graham_paul 6y ago
        > if it wasn't hard to do, it wasn't worth doing that's a very narrow minded way of looking at the world. Kind words, hugs are very much worth it
        dpcan 6y ago
        The point is that the things that come easy for us are usually those that we value the least, so, after we put in a lot of hard work and time on something, and we had a great accomplishment, we'd say "if it wasn't hard to do, it wasn't worth doing." It's a self pat-on-the-back. But I totally understand how if you applied this saying to EVERYTHING then it wouldn't make sense, or be seen as "narrow minded" I suppose. I mean, fishing is pretty damn easy, but every trip I take is worth taking for the peace of mind.
      - bcrosby95 6y ago
        Nothing is wrong with hard. But complaining about hard things, sympathy, and recognition of the difficulty is also a large portion of what makes doing hard things tolerable. Trying to shut it down will have the opposite effect of what you want.
  - lovich 6y ago
    What exactly is your daily routine then. Raising 4 kids while working full time with your spouse working 11 hours outside of the house is a pretty large claim.
    - itronitron 6y ago
      Probably something like, get the kids dressed before the first nanny shows up at 8am...
    - dpcan 6y ago
      I run my own business. Been a web consultant / developer for over 17 years. I have a pretty steady clientele right now. I work 6 to 9am, then 10-11pm, and I usually get a hour or two in during the day. Plus I work 6am to 10am weekends, maybe more if my wife isn't tired and hangs out with the kids on Saturday and Sunday afternoons.
      - asldkjaslkdj 6y ago
        You essentially work a half day. Burying the lede here a bit.
        dpcan 6y ago
        I never get to stop working, but thanks. Every day, all day, I get email and have to respond to a vast customer base. While I may not be coding away at my computer, I have to stop about 10 times a day to respond to customers, help them solve a problem, make an update, etc. It never ends, I never get vacation, I never get a weekend, I never get a holiday. I literally had a customer call me on Christmas last year because they got a new iPad and wanted me to help them put their domain email on it. So, no. I do NOT just work a half-day, I prioritize, I multi-task, and it's very difficult to maintain this lifestyle.
        cbsks 6y ago
        Must be nice to have flexible working hours! Many people do not have that luxury, even when working remotely.
  - xnyan 6y ago
    I’m very curious about your daily schedule. I was homeschooled for 12 years, 1 of 5 kids so I’m familiar with home education and having a hard time imagining how a single adult can both work and teach and take care 4 kids.
    - dpcan 6y ago
      I've run my own business for over 17 years. I get up early, work, stay up kind-of late, work, and get a lot of time in early on the weekends. It's not really that terrible. It's difficult, but doable, and I can still focus a lot of my energy on raising my kids.
      - xnyan 6y ago
        I think that’s great, really. I also think that in your original comment you said that people should be focusing on what can be done with hard work rather than complaining about impossibility (paraphrasing). Most people must work during daytime hours, and formal learning (for example, math that pushes the boundary of what you know) does not work very well for kids (or adults in my experience) in the evening. I’m glad that you have the flexibility such that you don’t have to do work 8-to-6, but that’s clearly not realistic or even possible for most people. How does one hard work their way out of this? Start a business so you can teach during the daytime and in the meantime your kids do what exactly?
  - throwaway5792 6y ago
    Even time off work? Do you have no understanding of other people? How can you assume that's an option for people?!
dpcan 6y ago
And yet, with a little time, patience, and dedication from parents, all children can be taught to be respectful, focus, and learn the way we need them to learn during a strange and complicated time. This world is full of can't can't can't. Everywhere we turn, if there's an inconvenience involved. If we have to do something boring. If it won't be fun. If it's hard work..... we can't do it. It can't be done. I wish we had a "we can do this" attitude. I wish parents could say, "Don't worry, let's help each other. You may not have the time, but I do, and I'm here to help." But I'm out of hope.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  If, by "a little time", you mean a few years, until they're psychologically developed enough that you can expect this of them. "The way we need them to learn" strikes me as a very telling choice of words. This is a moment where we need to be meeting their needs, not just molding them to our expectations.
  - dpcan 6y ago
    My son had to miss pre-school when he was 4. I created a home-based program (week to week) where we learned everything I could find that would normally be in a regular pre-school curriculum. We worked for 3 hours every morning "studying", and he was 4. I made it fun. I made it productive. We took breaks. We had snacks. We had recess. It worked. By the end of the summer, he was reading and more prepared for Kindergarten than any of the kids in his class. Yes. If parents stop complaining, and get down to work, and make this fun for their kids, and have a positive attitude, even the youngest students can learn from home. Now days we even have Zoom options, so we WILL be able to get kids eye to eye with teachers, friends, other students. I would have loved that 8 years ago.
    - james_s_tayler 6y ago
      Ah, so the original comment is predicated on the assumption that all adults are capable of doing that for their kids. Some are. Some aren't. Same goes for the kids.
dang 6y ago
"I'm amazed how dismissive all the comments are here" The contrarian dynamic strikes again: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22contrarian%20dynamic%22%20objecti%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
- debacle 6y ago
  dang I didn't find your link super helpful. What is the contrarian dynamic?
  - detaro 6y ago
    "Threads often get an initial wave of negative comments, followed by a second wave of objections to the objections. What determines the initial wave of comments is not community opinion—rather, it's what's the easiest thing to make reflexive objections to. Those comments are the first to show up because those reflexive reactions take the least time. Thoughtful comments require reflection, which is much slower" ?
    - debacle 6y ago
      Thank you.
  - dang 6y ago
    The "contrarian dynamic" is that HN threads (and internet comments generally) are propelled by people making objections. [1] The objections come in waves. In the earliest stage of a thread, they tend to be rapid negative reactions to the article. It's not that these are a community consensus, it's that they're the fastest reactions to feel, and the fastest comments to write—especially when the topic is provocative, when most of us are reacting from cache [2]. Then a second wave of objections is generated by the first wave. Readers come to the thread, see the comment section dominated by those initial reflexive responses, and feel some version of surprised-shocked-dismayed at how "all HN commenters" seem to react in the same way. This propels them to write defenses of the article, often carefully expressing more moderate or balanced views than the first wave—but they probably wouldn't have been motivated to post anything if there hadn't been the first wave of comments to object to! These second-wave comments tend to get more upvotes, perhaps because more people tend to share the more moderate view, but also because those comments tend to be more reflective [2] and therefore better written. This explains why the top comment in a thread so often begins (ironically) with "Wow, I can't believe the comments here"—or from the current thread: "All of these comments make me think HN has never interacted with a 5 year old" [3]—followed by a defense of whatever those objections were objecting to. Eventually you get objections to the objections to the objections—which reminds me of the line "My complication had a little complication" from Brazil [4], and also epicycles. [1] Cunningham's Law touches on this: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham%27s_Law https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham%27s_Law [2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=reflective%20reflex%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24215135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24215135 [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyHilwSRo28#t=61 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyHilwSRo28#t=61
Barrin92 6y ago
I got similarly dismissive comments once when I pointed to the importance of PE for child development, not just physically but also social dynamics and team aspects, confidence building and so on. HN crowd is a tough audience when it comes to adolescent socialisation, not everyone benefits from sitting in front of a computer from a young age.
- protomyth 6y ago
  Yeah, the lack of social interaction is a killer for a lot of child development. Kids on the spectrum whose primary problem is interaction skills are really getting screwed by the current situation.
- barry-cotter 6y ago
  PE is not important for child development. Exercise is. PE is a shitty kind of torture, a crappy simulacrum of doing some kind of physical activity you actually enjoy and would do voluntarily. In thought I hated sports, in part because of PE. Exercise is great. PE is an abomination.
  - tehbeard 6y ago
    Sweet Jesus, this. The only way I got back into exercise was swimming, because the only PE association it had was primary school lessons that were calm and didn't involve shitty peers.
- yesenadam 6y ago
  > confidence building Being picked last for every team ever wasn't great for that. It was humiliating, time after time. But worse was then being bullied in the compulsory showers every time for supposedly wanting to have anal sex with everyone, I guess because I was into music and science, not sport. Although, outside school, I was in weekly soccer, basketball and sailing competitions, and did a lot of kayaking, windsurfing, table tennis, roller skating, swimming, bike riding, tennis, handball etc etc. I can hardly believe how sporty I was compared to now, yet still was considered super-unsporty! Ah this is another dismissive comment I guess. Maybe people like me are over-represented here! (And who this "HN crowd" I read about? Everyone but you?) I reacted to your language, I think - you presented yourself as just pointing out a fact, when you got dismissive comments from a tough crowd without your level of knowledge and understanding.
supergeek133 6y ago
I understand dealing with children, I'm not being dismissive (at least I don't think I am) of that. I'm confused why this was written or published. There is no "point". Yes, it's very hard to keep adults much less kids cooped up in a house all day. Especially for 6+ months. But, what else are we supposed to do? This is just a paid, public gripe that a lot of people can relate with, but what purpose does it serve? There isn't an alternative unless the author is pushing for schools to open regardless of COVID, which I doubt.
- coderholic 6y ago
  > This is just a paid, public gripe that a lot of people can relate with It is > but what purpose does it serve? It lets the millions of other parents who find themselves suddenly in the same situation, feeling the same things, know they're not alone, and that the struggle is real!
  - supergeek133 6y ago
    That's fair enough, but that's not a fair indictment on virtual education (per the headline). The premise stinks.
  - rrobukef 6y ago
    It is the beginning of remote-learning science. Anecdotes allow estimations of impact and the creation of hypotheses. If nobody talks about a problem, does it exist?
throwawaydad101 6y ago
Saying you can relate to what the author describes means that you can fill in the iceberg below the surface. I'm not sure I can say that for those without kids developing an appreciation for the magnitude of this iceberg is possible without having a child. I'm still learning how to dad and part of that is sharing the experience of the phase transition from childless to parent with those who have yet to or choose not to pass through the transition. With enough time and thought (which is hard to come by when you have a kid), maybe I'll get there.
zelphirkalt 6y ago
But what about children in Australia, where remote teaching has been done for many years? Are they all somehow specially gifted children, so that they manage?
- sailfast 6y ago
  Can you say more about the format of remote learning in Australia? Age ranges? How much video per day? In my school district, they are looking at 4 hours (2, 2-hour blocks) of "live learning" in-person per day, for 5-6 year olds. I can't imagine they're doing that in Oz?
  - jimktrains2 6y ago
    Probably referring to this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_Air https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_Air
  - cbo100 6y ago
    I can only assume they are talking about “school of the air”. Very much not the norm here, it’s very remote students hours from towns taking school remotely. It was 1 way or 2 way radio back in the day, now wiki says it’s 1 way video stream with 2 way voice. From wiki... “ Each student typically spends one hour per day receiving group or individual lessons from the teacher, and the rest of the day working through the assigned materials with a parent, older sibling or a hired home-stay tutor.”
    - zelphirkalt 6y ago
      This is interesting! These children might develop an amazing self-sufficiency or some advanced self-organization skills (if they manage to deal with it well). I often wonder how I myself would have turned out, if I had been taught this way or similarly.
- function_seven 6y ago
  I don't know all that much about how it's done there, so I can't really answer that. I'm assuming you're talking about kids in the Outback, where vast distance makes it harder to have classroom instruction? There was a recent NYT article about that[0], and my takeaway is that it's really homeschooling with support from teachers. Not a Zoom videoconference where they fake like they're in the same classroom. The parents are much more involved in the early years. Once the kids are old enough to know how to learn, then it can become more of an instruction/homework style of teaching rather than what's required for preschool and Kindergarten kids. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/world/australia/australia-remote-learning-schools-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/world/australia/australia...
megablast 6y ago
What is your brilliant solution then??? This is clearly the best we can do know.
- burkaman 6y ago
  Often it's easier to find a solution by talking about a problem, rather than staying silent until you've solved it on your own.
- function_seven 6y ago
  I don't have a brilliant solution. But it's also not clear to me that this is the best we can do now. It might be better to skip the whole thing entirely. If I were the author, I'd consider opting out of kindergarten, or do it intermittently. How education adapted to this pandemic will be studied for years to come. Hopefully something more brilliant than Zoom will be discovered somewhere, and spread.
- pfortuny 6y ago
  This is the first thing that came to mind, not the best we can do.
protomyth 6y ago
Heck, older kids have problems. My brother has a large screen for the computer and his son did his first Zoom class and freaked out. The 30+ faces staring at him was just too much. My brother had to switch to the view that just shows the speaker. It was still a pain for the whole day. It's just not physical so it becomes watching a TV show for the whole day. There is something about the physical presence of others that makes things better.
amerkhalid 6y ago
> You give me the most well-behaved kid, ... As a first-time father of 2.5 years old, I worry a lot about his behavior like when he hits me for no reason and then laughs. That cannot be normal, or so I used to think. His pediatrician assure us that this is normal toddler behavior. In fact, lack of such behavior is cause of concern. Another thing she told us is that social workers look out for extremely well-behaving kids because they might be suffering abuse. At this stage, I personally don't have experience with school age children but I imagine it is not normal for 5 years old to be able to sit in front of laptop for several hours.

coderholic 6y ago

Me too! We're jugging 3 kids and working from home, and I thought the article was on point. My guess is that most of the dismissive comments are from people without kids!

dpcan 6y ago
I have 4 kids. I work from home. My wife works 11 hours a day away from the house. I feel like this world is full of "can't" people who aren't willing to do the extra work. We seem to have enough time to comment on Hacker News. To argue about masks on Facebook. To watch every TikTok, and spend hours on Twitter. But put in the necessary work to make learning at home productive. Nope, can't do that. We have put in the work at our house to make e-learning possible, and it can be effective, and kids can focus, and kids can wear masks, and kids CAN still LEARN during difficult times - but it takes sacrifices from parents, be it sleep, entertainment, our phones, TV, or even time off work and living lean. But I'm ready for it... let's hear some CAN DO stuff from the HN community!
- coderholic 6y ago
  I don't think the point is it can't be done. I think it's just acknowledging that it's HARD. Both for the kids, and the parents.
  - dpcan 6y ago
    What the hell is wrong with HARD???? Why is everyone so lazy? We are going backwards as a society. I was raised thinking that if it wasn't hard to do, it wasn't worth doing. Every uphill path should not be looked at as an arduous journey, but as an adventure with an amazing reward at the top.
    - throwaways885 6y ago
      I like your take on life - thanks for reminding me of this little fact.
      - dpcan 6y ago
        I assume this is sarcasm, but if not, prepare for down-votes because absolutely nobody agrees with me.
    - graham_paul 6y ago
      > if it wasn't hard to do, it wasn't worth doing that's a very narrow minded way of looking at the world. Kind words, hugs are very much worth it
      - dpcan 6y ago
        The point is that the things that come easy for us are usually those that we value the least, so, after we put in a lot of hard work and time on something, and we had a great accomplishment, we'd say "if it wasn't hard to do, it wasn't worth doing." It's a self pat-on-the-back. But I totally understand how if you applied this saying to EVERYTHING then it wouldn't make sense, or be seen as "narrow minded" I suppose. I mean, fishing is pretty damn easy, but every trip I take is worth taking for the peace of mind.
    - bcrosby95 6y ago
      Nothing is wrong with hard. But complaining about hard things, sympathy, and recognition of the difficulty is also a large portion of what makes doing hard things tolerable. Trying to shut it down will have the opposite effect of what you want.
- lovich 6y ago
  What exactly is your daily routine then. Raising 4 kids while working full time with your spouse working 11 hours outside of the house is a pretty large claim.
  - itronitron 6y ago
    Probably something like, get the kids dressed before the first nanny shows up at 8am...
  - dpcan 6y ago
    I run my own business. Been a web consultant / developer for over 17 years. I have a pretty steady clientele right now. I work 6 to 9am, then 10-11pm, and I usually get a hour or two in during the day. Plus I work 6am to 10am weekends, maybe more if my wife isn't tired and hangs out with the kids on Saturday and Sunday afternoons.
    - asldkjaslkdj 6y ago
      You essentially work a half day. Burying the lede here a bit.
      - dpcan 6y ago
        I never get to stop working, but thanks. Every day, all day, I get email and have to respond to a vast customer base. While I may not be coding away at my computer, I have to stop about 10 times a day to respond to customers, help them solve a problem, make an update, etc. It never ends, I never get vacation, I never get a weekend, I never get a holiday. I literally had a customer call me on Christmas last year because they got a new iPad and wanted me to help them put their domain email on it. So, no. I do NOT just work a half-day, I prioritize, I multi-task, and it's very difficult to maintain this lifestyle.
        cbsks 6y ago
        Must be nice to have flexible working hours! Many people do not have that luxury, even when working remotely.
- xnyan 6y ago
  I’m very curious about your daily schedule. I was homeschooled for 12 years, 1 of 5 kids so I’m familiar with home education and having a hard time imagining how a single adult can both work and teach and take care 4 kids.
  - dpcan 6y ago
    I've run my own business for over 17 years. I get up early, work, stay up kind-of late, work, and get a lot of time in early on the weekends. It's not really that terrible. It's difficult, but doable, and I can still focus a lot of my energy on raising my kids.
    - xnyan 6y ago
      I think that’s great, really. I also think that in your original comment you said that people should be focusing on what can be done with hard work rather than complaining about impossibility (paraphrasing). Most people must work during daytime hours, and formal learning (for example, math that pushes the boundary of what you know) does not work very well for kids (or adults in my experience) in the evening. I’m glad that you have the flexibility such that you don’t have to do work 8-to-6, but that’s clearly not realistic or even possible for most people. How does one hard work their way out of this? Start a business so you can teach during the daytime and in the meantime your kids do what exactly?
- throwaway5792 6y ago
  Even time off work? Do you have no understanding of other people? How can you assume that's an option for people?!

dpcan 6y ago

And yet, with a little time, patience, and dedication from parents, all children can be taught to be respectful, focus, and learn the way we need them to learn during a strange and complicated time. This world is full of can't can't can't. Everywhere we turn, if there's an inconvenience involved. If we have to do something boring. If it won't be fun. If it's hard work..... we can't do it. It can't be done. I wish we had a "we can do this" attitude. I wish parents could say, "Don't worry, let's help each other. You may not have the time, but I do, and I'm here to help." But I'm out of hope.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mumblemumble 6y ago
If, by "a little time", you mean a few years, until they're psychologically developed enough that you can expect this of them. "The way we need them to learn" strikes me as a very telling choice of words. This is a moment where we need to be meeting their needs, not just molding them to our expectations.
- dpcan 6y ago
  My son had to miss pre-school when he was 4. I created a home-based program (week to week) where we learned everything I could find that would normally be in a regular pre-school curriculum. We worked for 3 hours every morning "studying", and he was 4. I made it fun. I made it productive. We took breaks. We had snacks. We had recess. It worked. By the end of the summer, he was reading and more prepared for Kindergarten than any of the kids in his class. Yes. If parents stop complaining, and get down to work, and make this fun for their kids, and have a positive attitude, even the youngest students can learn from home. Now days we even have Zoom options, so we WILL be able to get kids eye to eye with teachers, friends, other students. I would have loved that 8 years ago.
  - james_s_tayler 6y ago
    Ah, so the original comment is predicated on the assumption that all adults are capable of doing that for their kids. Some are. Some aren't. Same goes for the kids.

dang 6y ago

"I'm amazed how dismissive all the comments are here" The contrarian dynamic strikes again: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22contrarian%20dynamic%22%20objecti%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

debacle 6y ago
dang I didn't find your link super helpful. What is the contrarian dynamic?
- detaro 6y ago
  "Threads often get an initial wave of negative comments, followed by a second wave of objections to the objections. What determines the initial wave of comments is not community opinion—rather, it's what's the easiest thing to make reflexive objections to. Those comments are the first to show up because those reflexive reactions take the least time. Thoughtful comments require reflection, which is much slower" ?
  - debacle 6y ago
    Thank you.
- dang 6y ago
  The "contrarian dynamic" is that HN threads (and internet comments generally) are propelled by people making objections. [1] The objections come in waves. In the earliest stage of a thread, they tend to be rapid negative reactions to the article. It's not that these are a community consensus, it's that they're the fastest reactions to feel, and the fastest comments to write—especially when the topic is provocative, when most of us are reacting from cache [2]. Then a second wave of objections is generated by the first wave. Readers come to the thread, see the comment section dominated by those initial reflexive responses, and feel some version of surprised-shocked-dismayed at how "all HN commenters" seem to react in the same way. This propels them to write defenses of the article, often carefully expressing more moderate or balanced views than the first wave—but they probably wouldn't have been motivated to post anything if there hadn't been the first wave of comments to object to! These second-wave comments tend to get more upvotes, perhaps because more people tend to share the more moderate view, but also because those comments tend to be more reflective [2] and therefore better written. This explains why the top comment in a thread so often begins (ironically) with "Wow, I can't believe the comments here"—or from the current thread: "All of these comments make me think HN has never interacted with a 5 year old" [3]—followed by a defense of whatever those objections were objecting to. Eventually you get objections to the objections to the objections—which reminds me of the line "My complication had a little complication" from Brazil [4], and also epicycles. [1] Cunningham's Law touches on this: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham%27s_Law https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham%27s_Law [2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=reflective%20reflex%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24215135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24215135 [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyHilwSRo28#t=61 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyHilwSRo28#t=61

Barrin92 6y ago

I got similarly dismissive comments once when I pointed to the importance of PE for child development, not just physically but also social dynamics and team aspects, confidence building and so on. HN crowd is a tough audience when it comes to adolescent socialisation, not everyone benefits from sitting in front of a computer from a young age.

protomyth 6y ago
Yeah, the lack of social interaction is a killer for a lot of child development. Kids on the spectrum whose primary problem is interaction skills are really getting screwed by the current situation.
barry-cotter 6y ago
PE is not important for child development. Exercise is. PE is a shitty kind of torture, a crappy simulacrum of doing some kind of physical activity you actually enjoy and would do voluntarily. In thought I hated sports, in part because of PE. Exercise is great. PE is an abomination.
- tehbeard 6y ago
  Sweet Jesus, this. The only way I got back into exercise was swimming, because the only PE association it had was primary school lessons that were calm and didn't involve shitty peers.
yesenadam 6y ago
> confidence building Being picked last for every team ever wasn't great for that. It was humiliating, time after time. But worse was then being bullied in the compulsory showers every time for supposedly wanting to have anal sex with everyone, I guess because I was into music and science, not sport. Although, outside school, I was in weekly soccer, basketball and sailing competitions, and did a lot of kayaking, windsurfing, table tennis, roller skating, swimming, bike riding, tennis, handball etc etc. I can hardly believe how sporty I was compared to now, yet still was considered super-unsporty! Ah this is another dismissive comment I guess. Maybe people like me are over-represented here! (And who this "HN crowd" I read about? Everyone but you?) I reacted to your language, I think - you presented yourself as just pointing out a fact, when you got dismissive comments from a tough crowd without your level of knowledge and understanding.

supergeek133 6y ago

I understand dealing with children, I'm not being dismissive (at least I don't think I am) of that. I'm confused why this was written or published. There is no "point". Yes, it's very hard to keep adults much less kids cooped up in a house all day. Especially for 6+ months. But, what else are we supposed to do? This is just a paid, public gripe that a lot of people can relate with, but what purpose does it serve? There isn't an alternative unless the author is pushing for schools to open regardless of COVID, which I doubt.

coderholic 6y ago
> This is just a paid, public gripe that a lot of people can relate with It is > but what purpose does it serve? It lets the millions of other parents who find themselves suddenly in the same situation, feeling the same things, know they're not alone, and that the struggle is real!
- supergeek133 6y ago
  That's fair enough, but that's not a fair indictment on virtual education (per the headline). The premise stinks.
- rrobukef 6y ago
  It is the beginning of remote-learning science. Anecdotes allow estimations of impact and the creation of hypotheses. If nobody talks about a problem, does it exist?

throwawaydad101 6y ago

Saying you can relate to what the author describes means that you can fill in the iceberg below the surface. I'm not sure I can say that for those without kids developing an appreciation for the magnitude of this iceberg is possible without having a child. I'm still learning how to dad and part of that is sharing the experience of the phase transition from childless to parent with those who have yet to or choose not to pass through the transition. With enough time and thought (which is hard to come by when you have a kid), maybe I'll get there.

zelphirkalt 6y ago

But what about children in Australia, where remote teaching has been done for many years? Are they all somehow specially gifted children, so that they manage?

sailfast 6y ago
Can you say more about the format of remote learning in Australia? Age ranges? How much video per day? In my school district, they are looking at 4 hours (2, 2-hour blocks) of "live learning" in-person per day, for 5-6 year olds. I can't imagine they're doing that in Oz?
- jimktrains2 6y ago
  Probably referring to this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_Air https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_Air
- cbo100 6y ago
  I can only assume they are talking about “school of the air”. Very much not the norm here, it’s very remote students hours from towns taking school remotely. It was 1 way or 2 way radio back in the day, now wiki says it’s 1 way video stream with 2 way voice. From wiki... “ Each student typically spends one hour per day receiving group or individual lessons from the teacher, and the rest of the day working through the assigned materials with a parent, older sibling or a hired home-stay tutor.”
  - zelphirkalt 6y ago
    This is interesting! These children might develop an amazing self-sufficiency or some advanced self-organization skills (if they manage to deal with it well). I often wonder how I myself would have turned out, if I had been taught this way or similarly.
function_seven 6y ago
I don't know all that much about how it's done there, so I can't really answer that. I'm assuming you're talking about kids in the Outback, where vast distance makes it harder to have classroom instruction? There was a recent NYT article about that[0], and my takeaway is that it's really homeschooling with support from teachers. Not a Zoom videoconference where they fake like they're in the same classroom. The parents are much more involved in the early years. Once the kids are old enough to know how to learn, then it can become more of an instruction/homework style of teaching rather than what's required for preschool and Kindergarten kids. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/world/australia/australia-remote-learning-schools-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/world/australia/australia...

megablast 6y ago

What is your brilliant solution then??? This is clearly the best we can do know.

burkaman 6y ago
Often it's easier to find a solution by talking about a problem, rather than staying silent until you've solved it on your own.
function_seven 6y ago
I don't have a brilliant solution. But it's also not clear to me that this is the best we can do now. It might be better to skip the whole thing entirely. If I were the author, I'd consider opting out of kindergarten, or do it intermittently. How education adapted to this pandemic will be studied for years to come. Hopefully something more brilliant than Zoom will be discovered somewhere, and spread.
pfortuny 6y ago
This is the first thing that came to mind, not the best we can do.

protomyth 6y ago

Heck, older kids have problems. My brother has a large screen for the computer and his son did his first Zoom class and freaked out. The 30+ faces staring at him was just too much. My brother had to switch to the view that just shows the speaker. It was still a pain for the whole day. It's just not physical so it becomes watching a TV show for the whole day. There is something about the physical presence of others that makes things better.

amerkhalid 6y ago

> You give me the most well-behaved kid, ... As a first-time father of 2.5 years old, I worry a lot about his behavior like when he hits me for no reason and then laughs. That cannot be normal, or so I used to think. His pediatrician assure us that this is normal toddler behavior. In fact, lack of such behavior is cause of concern. Another thing she told us is that social workers look out for extremely well-behaving kids because they might be suffering abuse. At this stage, I personally don't have experience with school age children but I imagine it is not normal for 5 years old to be able to sit in front of laptop for several hours.