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This removes "New Toyotas" from my list of potential next vehicles, though it's likely just a matter of time before all new vehicles have a direct link with ins

This removes "New Toyotas" from my list of potential next vehicles, though it's likely just a matter of time before all new vehicles have a direct link with insurance companies.

dingdingdang 6y ago
Count me in, there's no way I would touch these things. And that's despite Toyota being one of my fav car brands :/
- unknown2374 6y ago
  FYI, Toyota's cover-up on a major defect caused multiple deaths and hundreds of accidents in 2009 [0]. That's criminal. [0] https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-pay-12b-hiding-deadly-unintended-acceleration/story?id=22972214 https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-pay-12b-hiding-deadly-...
  - giancarlostoro 6y ago
    I think most Toyota drivers know about this one, it was a software bug, it's a shame they tried to cover it up, but the bug itself couldn't of been intentional. They were just trying to contain a shitty situation, they make otherwise reliable cars which is why people buy Toyota.
  - erikw 6y ago
    I don't think this is actually true. I have not been able to find any sources referencing an actual bug and patch. Toyota, NASA, and the NHTSA did not report any issues. Nevertheless, Toyota lost a jury trial with this rather hilarious quote available on wikipedia[1]: "Michael Barr of the Barr Group testified that NASA had not been able to complete its examination of Toyota's ETCS and that Toyota did not follow best practices for real time life critical software, and that a single bit flip which can be caused by cosmic rays could cause unintended acceleration. As well, the run-time stack of the real-time operating system was not large enough and that it was possible for the stack to grow large enough to overwrite data that could cause unintended acceleration." So... maybe the computer could have physically failed, or a stack overflow, or some other error? Regardless, I still feel like drive-by-wire is scary. The Revisionist History podcast also covers the unintended acceleration recall from more of a psychological perspective[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle_recalls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle... [2] http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/08-blame-game http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/08-blame-game
  - namdnay 6y ago
    I thought the consensus was that it was floor mats getting stuck?
  - CraigJPerry 6y ago
    There’s quite a few scary stories in the automotive world. It’s quite unsettling. The GM handling of ignition deaths was upsetting to read about https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch_recalls https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_swit... Ford’s 2000s era people carriers with a penchant for self-immolation due to a wiring harness issue iirc. More recently the Bosch / VAG diesel gate stories that were in the news. Off setting that was the John Deere move to block aftermarket servicing because end users can’t be trusted...!
giancarlostoro 6y ago
I'm basically a Toyota only guy, I have to say, I agree as well. It's a damn shame. This should be completely opt-in only.
- Taek 6y ago
  Toyota has a history of getting things right. They may well respond to feedback here. In the meantime, their cars last forever so we can probably keep driving Toyota for another 20 years.
  - giancarlostoro 6y ago
    As long as I can turn off this AWS nonsense, I will be too. I really want to own a Lexus at some point but it's out of my pay grade currently. Lexus are also top quality as well.
novok 6y ago
Even toyotas sold today have cellular modems that track your location, it's called "toyota safety connect". There is no obvious way to turn it off either.
- blahyawnblah 6y ago
  Fuse?
- tomc1985 6y ago
  I imagine that you can still take the car to a mechanic and ask them to remove the sim card to disconnect the system
  - oneplane 6y ago
    if it's put in there with the intent to track you regardless of what you want they'll have provisions to make sure you don't disable it. I.e. not use a SIM card but use an eSIM or CDMA style authentication. Or make the ECU go in to cripple mode if it can't talk to the mothership over the cell connection.
  - bradly 6y ago
    At least for Volvo they are used for by their service mechanics as well, so you will want to make sure it doesn't void any warranty claims.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
cma 6y ago
Tesla and eventually others likely will use your plates to sell info about your driving regardless of which car brand you own. Your car doesn't have to report on you when there is a network of other cars with machine vision and radar that can.
encom 6y ago
Are there new cars sold today that are not connected to the internet?
MVorlm 6y ago
I have a "New Toyota", and I was asked before it started uploading data for insurance.
m463 6y ago
So here is how it works from a friend who worked at a bank. It turns out that a certain immigrant demographic has the property: many get a credit card, they immediately charge it to the max, they make the minimum payment forever. Another demographic: some of them get a credit card, immediately charge it to the max, they make 2 payments, then they never make another payment again. The way to do this right is to just spread the risk over everyone so that good people in the second demographic are not penalized by bad ones. The way it really works is: advertising heavily targets the first demographic, using their national language and excluding other demographics. So in regard to insurance, good drivers will think "this doesn't apply to me", and bad drivers will be excluded by making them go elsewhere.
- s1artibartfast 6y ago
  My understanding of how it really works is somewhere in between. Find a group of markers that are collective a very strong proxy for demographic 2, such as zip code, education, credit score, and they charge them higher rates or restrict enrollment.
forgot_account 6y ago
I'm starting to wonder if there will be a growing market for car shops to do what I've done to my Supra: Pull out the entire wire harness and replace it with an aftermarket Power Distribution Module system, ECU, and CAN-BUS controller. Remove all this monitoring and connectivity crap, but keep the best parts of a modern Japanese car: the bulletproof mechanical components. It's expensive and time-consuming, but also saves some weight.
ekanes 6y ago
Agreed. Though they hold their value/worth extremely well, which means you should be able to work with older, used models for quite some time.

This removes "New Toyotas" from my list of potential next vehicles, though it's likely just a matter of time before all new vehicles have a direct link with insurance companies.

dingdingdang 6y ago

Count me in, there's no way I would touch these things. And that's despite Toyota being one of my fav car brands :/

unknown2374 6y ago
FYI, Toyota's cover-up on a major defect caused multiple deaths and hundreds of accidents in 2009 [0]. That's criminal. [0] https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-pay-12b-hiding-deadly-unintended-acceleration/story?id=22972214 https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-pay-12b-hiding-deadly-...
- giancarlostoro 6y ago
  I think most Toyota drivers know about this one, it was a software bug, it's a shame they tried to cover it up, but the bug itself couldn't of been intentional. They were just trying to contain a shitty situation, they make otherwise reliable cars which is why people buy Toyota.
- erikw 6y ago
  I don't think this is actually true. I have not been able to find any sources referencing an actual bug and patch. Toyota, NASA, and the NHTSA did not report any issues. Nevertheless, Toyota lost a jury trial with this rather hilarious quote available on wikipedia[1]: "Michael Barr of the Barr Group testified that NASA had not been able to complete its examination of Toyota's ETCS and that Toyota did not follow best practices for real time life critical software, and that a single bit flip which can be caused by cosmic rays could cause unintended acceleration. As well, the run-time stack of the real-time operating system was not large enough and that it was possible for the stack to grow large enough to overwrite data that could cause unintended acceleration." So... maybe the computer could have physically failed, or a stack overflow, or some other error? Regardless, I still feel like drive-by-wire is scary. The Revisionist History podcast also covers the unintended acceleration recall from more of a psychological perspective[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle_recalls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle... [2] http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/08-blame-game http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/08-blame-game
- namdnay 6y ago
  I thought the consensus was that it was floor mats getting stuck?
- CraigJPerry 6y ago
  There’s quite a few scary stories in the automotive world. It’s quite unsettling. The GM handling of ignition deaths was upsetting to read about https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch_recalls https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_swit... Ford’s 2000s era people carriers with a penchant for self-immolation due to a wiring harness issue iirc. More recently the Bosch / VAG diesel gate stories that were in the news. Off setting that was the John Deere move to block aftermarket servicing because end users can’t be trusted...!

giancarlostoro 6y ago

I'm basically a Toyota only guy, I have to say, I agree as well. It's a damn shame. This should be completely opt-in only.

Taek 6y ago
Toyota has a history of getting things right. They may well respond to feedback here. In the meantime, their cars last forever so we can probably keep driving Toyota for another 20 years.
- giancarlostoro 6y ago
  As long as I can turn off this AWS nonsense, I will be too. I really want to own a Lexus at some point but it's out of my pay grade currently. Lexus are also top quality as well.

novok 6y ago

Even toyotas sold today have cellular modems that track your location, it's called "toyota safety connect". There is no obvious way to turn it off either.

blahyawnblah 6y ago
Fuse?
tomc1985 6y ago
I imagine that you can still take the car to a mechanic and ask them to remove the sim card to disconnect the system
- oneplane 6y ago
  if it's put in there with the intent to track you regardless of what you want they'll have provisions to make sure you don't disable it. I.e. not use a SIM card but use an eSIM or CDMA style authentication. Or make the ECU go in to cripple mode if it can't talk to the mothership over the cell connection.
- bradly 6y ago
  At least for Volvo they are used for by their service mechanics as well, so you will want to make sure it doesn't void any warranty claims.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

cma 6y ago

Tesla and eventually others likely will use your plates to sell info about your driving regardless of which car brand you own. Your car doesn't have to report on you when there is a network of other cars with machine vision and radar that can.

encom 6y ago

Are there new cars sold today that are not connected to the internet?

MVorlm 6y ago

I have a "New Toyota", and I was asked before it started uploading data for insurance.

m463 6y ago

So here is how it works from a friend who worked at a bank. It turns out that a certain immigrant demographic has the property: many get a credit card, they immediately charge it to the max, they make the minimum payment forever. Another demographic: some of them get a credit card, immediately charge it to the max, they make 2 payments, then they never make another payment again. The way to do this right is to just spread the risk over everyone so that good people in the second demographic are not penalized by bad ones. The way it really works is: advertising heavily targets the first demographic, using their national language and excluding other demographics. So in regard to insurance, good drivers will think "this doesn't apply to me", and bad drivers will be excluded by making them go elsewhere.

s1artibartfast 6y ago
My understanding of how it really works is somewhere in between. Find a group of markers that are collective a very strong proxy for demographic 2, such as zip code, education, credit score, and they charge them higher rates or restrict enrollment.

forgot_account 6y ago

I'm starting to wonder if there will be a growing market for car shops to do what I've done to my Supra: Pull out the entire wire harness and replace it with an aftermarket Power Distribution Module system, ECU, and CAN-BUS controller. Remove all this monitoring and connectivity crap, but keep the best parts of a modern Japanese car: the bulletproof mechanical components. It's expensive and time-consuming, but also saves some weight.

ekanes 6y ago

Agreed. Though they hold their value/worth extremely well, which means you should be able to work with older, used models for quite some time.