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In their passionate commitment to creating, and their openness to sharing ideas, hackers see their online exploits as “a form of participation in the ‘work’ of
by jeromec 16y ago
In their passionate commitment to creating, and their openness to sharing ideas, hackers see their online exploits as “a form of participation in the ‘work’ of God in creation,”
Given that logical reasoning is usually a strong trait common to hackers, it's a bit ironic to have the Vatican attempt to speak for hackers. Perhaps someone should email them this poll http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1486594 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1486594.
- bendmorris 16y agoWhile I'm not myself Catholic... I disagree that celebrating hackers is "attempting to speak for them." Also, there are plenty of religious hackers, logical Catholics, Catholic hackers, etc. so your assertion of some sort of conflict between logical reasoning and the Vatican seems rather bigoted.
- jeromec 16y agoBigoted? I simply made an objective observation. None of the thousands of religions of the world stand up particularly well to strict logic and reasoning. The very nature of faith is belief without objective proof. I did not attack faith. Hacker News is obviously home to a very large sample size of "hackers", and the poll I linked clearly appears to support my observation. I never said there were no religious hackers, just as it can't be said there are no religious scientists. Also, I would call "hackers see such and such" as speaking for, not celebrating hackers.
- adammichaelc 16y agoHow ironic that you linked to such a non-scientific, inherently flawed poll (ie not a random sample of HN readers) to argue in favor of science and objectivity. Just sayin! ;-)
- jeromec 16y agoNo, I didn't link to a non-scientific, inherently flawed poll to argue in favor of science and objectivity. I suggested two things: first, that the opinionated people at the Vatican would probably do well to take note of the results of that particular poll -- for whatever it's worth; second, that the poll appeared to support my observation. I never said it was scientific. I would very much welcome the conducting of an actual scientific poll on the subject. I have other reasons to argue in favor of science and objectivity, which certainly don't stem from a Web poll.
- lotharbot 16y ago> "The very nature of faith is belief without objective proof." It's only about the last 150 years, within a small subset of Christianity, that faith has meant "belief without proof" or "belief without reason". Throughout the rest of Jewish and Christian history, as well as in other classical European and Middle Eastern writings, faith has been used to mean "acting upon a belief you hold for good reason, and continuing to act in the face of emotional difficulty". The classical definition of faith, which is still used by most serious religious scholars, is the triumph of reason and evidence over temporary emotion. (Previously discussed at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2366932 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2366932 ) > None of the thousands of religions of the world stand up particularly well to strict logic and reasoning Obligatory [citation needed]. Or, rather, [many thousands of citations needed]. If you ever happen to be in my neighborhood, join me for dinner and you can do your best to demonstrate how my particular religion doesn't stand up well to strict logic and reasoning.
- luminous00 16y agoI'm a Catholic hacker. Apparently I am a rare breed around here.
- patio11 16y agoNot so rare.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- tptacek 16y agoNot rare. :) If you broaden the scope to "christian", a lot of very well known hackers also turn out to be fairly observant.
- rmc 16y agoI was baptised, but tried to leave (defect). They don't let you do it anymore ( http://www.technomancy.org/catholic-defection/ http://www.technomancy.org/catholic-defection/ ) :(
- ChuckMcM 16y agoIt is unfortunate that 'religion' and 'belief in god' are so inextricably entangled in American society. Too often, what people call 'religion' is really an organization that seeks to use the existence and/or potential favor of a supernatural being to impose external controls on 'believers' (which is to say if you don't do what I say you'll go to hell kinds of things). There are folks who believe in the existence of a God but are not trapped by Junior High syllogisms like "Can He make a rock so big He can't move it?" Brent Walters [1] is one such person who has spent a lot of time critically examining belief in God, why he believes, and what he believes, and more importantly what he does not believe about God. He has tracked down sources, and copies of manuscripts from around the world that help inform and educate as to what was going when they were written and to help understand the context of the writing in that light. I think Hacker's embody a very powerful concept which is what the Vatican (and the Dali Lama) really cherish which is the search for truth, through rigor and reason. When a device or program misbehaves a hacker wants to know why it misbehaves and whether or not that behavior is normal or abnormal. Its the truth underlying the observation that they seek. This is why debugging can be so rewarding, not only do you fix the problem but you often develop a deep understanding of the how the environment provoked the problem in the first place and what needed to be true for the problem to not occur in the future. Truth seeking is a requirement for hackers. As it is for those who would become enlightened. [1] http://www.kgoam810.com/Sectional.asp?id=32111 http://www.kgoam810.com/Sectional.asp?id=32111
- jeromec 16y agoDid you just say the Vatican really cherishes truth, and the search for it? Are we talking about a different Vatican or a different definition of truth?
- Apocryphon 16y agoSsh! Don't let them know that Knuth is a devout Lutheran!
- kylemaxwell 16y agoThis seems less speaking "for" hackers and more "about" hackers. The distinction matters.
- jeromec 16y agoAnd the Vatican is an authority on how "hackers see their online exploits" because... why?
- chc 16y agoFrom having spoken to them?
- jeromec 16y agoIt didn't occur to me the two groups were on such natural speaking terms. So if I talk to a few Catholic priests who tell me the priesthood is about molesting underage altar boys, should I then go out and claim that is how Catholic priests see the priesthood?
- chc 16y agoYes, you should. It's unlikely that you will be able to talk to several priests who would all say that, but if you do, by all means let the public know that this is an opinion shared by these Catholic priests. P.S.: I think you may be forgetting that "Hackers believe in God" can mean any of "All hackers believe in God," "Hackers tend to believe in God" or "There are hackers who believe in God." From the context, it seems most likely to me that the latter is the OP's intended usage.
- jeromec 16y agoWell, now that's the crux of our disagreement. If I say white men are gay, I don't think anyone will argue that's a neutral statement (to which nobody will take issue) as it can be easily interpreted as meaning I only spoke to a handful of white men, and it's only them I'm speaking about.