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Various forms of mutualism [1], libertarian socialism [2], market socialism [3] and democratic state socialism [4] are all non-capitalisms. The only "communism"

Various forms of mutualism [1], libertarian socialism [2], market socialism [3] and democratic state socialism [4] are all non-capitalisms. The only "communism" you are familiar with from history is Marxism-Lenninism and Moaism (a variation of the former.) Both of them are authoritarian state socialisms, although I'd argue that their historical incarnations weren't even that since there really was no social ownership, it was just capitalism with a single monopoly and black markets. [1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(economic_theory) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(economic_theory) [2]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism [3]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism [4]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

nailer 6y ago
> The only "communism" you are familiar with from history is Marxism-Lenninism and Moaism (a variation of the former.) That is the only communism that has ever existed at scale. Please stop trying to equate documented world history with personal subjective viewpoints. > Various forms of mutualism [1], libertarian socialism [2], market socialism [3] and democratic state socialism [4] are all non-capitalisms. As mentioned in the comment you're replying to, the countries described as social democracies (typically Nordic) are also capitalist. What countries have mutualist economies?
- throwanem 6y ago
  This is a weak argument. You're responding with a demand for historical examples of alternatives to an argument, not that history provides examples of all alternatives, but that history provides poor examples of how some alternatives can be implemented. As presented, your argument reduces to the claim that nothing which has not already been done can ever be done, which is so transparently absurd that I can't imagine it's what you actually intend to say.
  - nailer 6y ago
    I'm asking for examples of these systems being implemented practically. You find that weak? OK.
- guerrilla 6y ago
  > As mentioned in the comment you're replying to, the countries described as social democracies (typically Nordic) are also capitalist. I'm aware, being that I live in one, which is why I didn't mention social democracy. Democratic socialism is not social democracy which my reference explains. > What countries have mutualist economies? The question betrays a misunderstanding of what mutualism is.
  - nailer 6y ago
    If a country cannot have a mutualist economy then it's irrelevant to the discussion of economic models.
    - guerrilla 6y ago
      If only a country can have an economy, this would exclude global and local economies of the current system from the discussion of economic models. Check your assumptions. They are wrong.
      - nailer 6y ago
        > If only a country can have an economy That's not what I wrote. I asked for a model that scales. Generally economic systems are implemented nationally. > Check your assumptions. They are wrong. No. You don't have a working example of the system you are citing as a possible alternative. We're both aware of this.
        bccdee 6y ago
        Until the mid-18th century, there were no "working examples" of laissez-faire capitalism, which has since become the dominant global model. Economic circumstances change; in its fairly short history, many examples have shown that laissez-faire capitalism is vulnerable to collapse during periods of economic instability (fascism, authoritarian communism). Don't be so confident that new systems aren't possible when one of the defining traits of laissez-faire capitalism is a tendency to become unstable, fall apart, and be replaced with new systems. Incidentally, if you'd read the link which the other poster provided on market socialism, you'd have noticed that it scales in exactly the same way that laissez-faire capitalism scales, making your critique unfounded.

nailer 6y ago

> The only "communism" you are familiar with from history is Marxism-Lenninism and Moaism (a variation of the former.) That is the only communism that has ever existed at scale. Please stop trying to equate documented world history with personal subjective viewpoints. > Various forms of mutualism [1], libertarian socialism [2], market socialism [3] and democratic state socialism [4] are all non-capitalisms. As mentioned in the comment you're replying to, the countries described as social democracies (typically Nordic) are also capitalist. What countries have mutualist economies?

throwanem 6y ago
This is a weak argument. You're responding with a demand for historical examples of alternatives to an argument, not that history provides examples of all alternatives, but that history provides poor examples of how some alternatives can be implemented. As presented, your argument reduces to the claim that nothing which has not already been done can ever be done, which is so transparently absurd that I can't imagine it's what you actually intend to say.
- nailer 6y ago
  I'm asking for examples of these systems being implemented practically. You find that weak? OK.
guerrilla 6y ago
> As mentioned in the comment you're replying to, the countries described as social democracies (typically Nordic) are also capitalist. I'm aware, being that I live in one, which is why I didn't mention social democracy. Democratic socialism is not social democracy which my reference explains. > What countries have mutualist economies? The question betrays a misunderstanding of what mutualism is.
- nailer 6y ago
  If a country cannot have a mutualist economy then it's irrelevant to the discussion of economic models.
  - guerrilla 6y ago
    If only a country can have an economy, this would exclude global and local economies of the current system from the discussion of economic models. Check your assumptions. They are wrong.
    - nailer 6y ago
      > If only a country can have an economy That's not what I wrote. I asked for a model that scales. Generally economic systems are implemented nationally. > Check your assumptions. They are wrong. No. You don't have a working example of the system you are citing as a possible alternative. We're both aware of this.
      - bccdee 6y ago
        Until the mid-18th century, there were no "working examples" of laissez-faire capitalism, which has since become the dominant global model. Economic circumstances change; in its fairly short history, many examples have shown that laissez-faire capitalism is vulnerable to collapse during periods of economic instability (fascism, authoritarian communism). Don't be so confident that new systems aren't possible when one of the defining traits of laissez-faire capitalism is a tendency to become unstable, fall apart, and be replaced with new systems. Incidentally, if you'd read the link which the other poster provided on market socialism, you'd have noticed that it scales in exactly the same way that laissez-faire capitalism scales, making your critique unfounded.