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that implies that you think that your idea of what communism is also the only alternative to capitalism. That is not the case.

nailer 6y ago
Small asides: obviously that idea of communism isn't just my perception, it's the historical record of communism. What other non-capitalist modes of economy exist? Agrarian society isn't too common, social democracy is a form of capitalism.
- guerrilla 6y ago
  Various forms of mutualism [1], libertarian socialism [2], market socialism [3] and democratic state socialism [4] are all non-capitalisms. The only "communism" you are familiar with from history is Marxism-Lenninism and Moaism (a variation of the former.) Both of them are authoritarian state socialisms, although I'd argue that their historical incarnations weren't even that since there really was no social ownership, it was just capitalism with a single monopoly and black markets. [1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(economic_theory) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(economic_theory) [2]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism [3]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism [4]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism
  - nailer 6y ago
    > The only "communism" you are familiar with from history is Marxism-Lenninism and Moaism (a variation of the former.) That is the only communism that has ever existed at scale. Please stop trying to equate documented world history with personal subjective viewpoints. > Various forms of mutualism [1], libertarian socialism [2], market socialism [3] and democratic state socialism [4] are all non-capitalisms. As mentioned in the comment you're replying to, the countries described as social democracies (typically Nordic) are also capitalist. What countries have mutualist economies?
    - throwanem 6y ago
      This is a weak argument. You're responding with a demand for historical examples of alternatives to an argument, not that history provides examples of all alternatives, but that history provides poor examples of how some alternatives can be implemented. As presented, your argument reduces to the claim that nothing which has not already been done can ever be done, which is so transparently absurd that I can't imagine it's what you actually intend to say.
      - nailer 6y ago
        I'm asking for examples of these systems being implemented practically. You find that weak? OK.
    - guerrilla 6y ago
      > As mentioned in the comment you're replying to, the countries described as social democracies (typically Nordic) are also capitalist. I'm aware, being that I live in one, which is why I didn't mention social democracy. Democratic socialism is not social democracy which my reference explains. > What countries have mutualist economies? The question betrays a misunderstanding of what mutualism is.
      - nailer 6y ago
        If a country cannot have a mutualist economy then it's irrelevant to the discussion of economic models.
        guerrilla 6y ago
        If only a country can have an economy, this would exclude global and local economies of the current system from the discussion of economic models. Check your assumptions. They are wrong.
        nailer 6y ago
        > If only a country can have an economy That's not what I wrote. I asked for a model that scales. Generally economic systems are implemented nationally. > Check your assumptions. They are wrong. No. You don't have a working example of the system you are citing as a possible alternative. We're both aware of this.

nailer 6y ago

Small asides: obviously that idea of communism isn't just my perception, it's the historical record of communism. What other non-capitalist modes of economy exist? Agrarian society isn't too common, social democracy is a form of capitalism.

guerrilla 6y ago
Various forms of mutualism [1], libertarian socialism [2], market socialism [3] and democratic state socialism [4] are all non-capitalisms. The only "communism" you are familiar with from history is Marxism-Lenninism and Moaism (a variation of the former.) Both of them are authoritarian state socialisms, although I'd argue that their historical incarnations weren't even that since there really was no social ownership, it was just capitalism with a single monopoly and black markets. [1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(economic_theory) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(economic_theory) [2]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism [3]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism [4]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism
- nailer 6y ago
  > The only "communism" you are familiar with from history is Marxism-Lenninism and Moaism (a variation of the former.) That is the only communism that has ever existed at scale. Please stop trying to equate documented world history with personal subjective viewpoints. > Various forms of mutualism [1], libertarian socialism [2], market socialism [3] and democratic state socialism [4] are all non-capitalisms. As mentioned in the comment you're replying to, the countries described as social democracies (typically Nordic) are also capitalist. What countries have mutualist economies?
  - throwanem 6y ago
    This is a weak argument. You're responding with a demand for historical examples of alternatives to an argument, not that history provides examples of all alternatives, but that history provides poor examples of how some alternatives can be implemented. As presented, your argument reduces to the claim that nothing which has not already been done can ever be done, which is so transparently absurd that I can't imagine it's what you actually intend to say.
    - nailer 6y ago
      I'm asking for examples of these systems being implemented practically. You find that weak? OK.
  - guerrilla 6y ago
    > As mentioned in the comment you're replying to, the countries described as social democracies (typically Nordic) are also capitalist. I'm aware, being that I live in one, which is why I didn't mention social democracy. Democratic socialism is not social democracy which my reference explains. > What countries have mutualist economies? The question betrays a misunderstanding of what mutualism is.
    - nailer 6y ago
      If a country cannot have a mutualist economy then it's irrelevant to the discussion of economic models.
      - guerrilla 6y ago
        If only a country can have an economy, this would exclude global and local economies of the current system from the discussion of economic models. Check your assumptions. They are wrong.
        nailer 6y ago
        > If only a country can have an economy That's not what I wrote. I asked for a model that scales. Generally economic systems are implemented nationally. > Check your assumptions. They are wrong. No. You don't have a working example of the system you are citing as a possible alternative. We're both aware of this.