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Are non-American locks better? Why would American locks be worse?

by amock 6y ago

rockinghigh 6y ago
At least in France, dimple locks (keys have holes instead of teeth) are more common and feel more secure, even though they can still be lockpicked.
- Polylactic_acid 6y ago
  Most of the dimple locks I have seen can be opened with just a rake and 2 seconds time.
  - Uberphallus 6y ago
    Most dimple locks in Europe won't open by raking because they also carry spools.
donw 6y ago
Dimple locks are exceedingly common here in Japan, and German padlocks (Abus, etc.) are generally considered what you want to buy if you're actually trying to secure something. The thing is, those locks are more expensive to produce, both in terms of metallurgy and skilled labor. Germany has done a solid job of ensuring that it retains local experience in both areas, through a combination of tariffs, a robust skilled-trade education system, and consumer preference for domestic goods. American consumers, on the other hand, tend to be very price-sensitive, and Master locks are cheap. That's not to say that there aren't some rock-solid American locks, but Germany and Japan tend to be the leaders here (and for the same reason) If you're keen to learn more about locks and security, I suggest having a look at LockPickingLawyer on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm9K6rby98W8JigLoZOh6FQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm9K6rby98W8JigLoZOh6FQ
Tuna-Fish 6y ago
Most countries/regions tend to "standardize" almost all common locks to one type, which all the local locksmiths learn to work with and sell, and which all the people in that area learn to operate. The actual level of security or cost of the lock type seems to be insignificant, it's all just network effects. The most common locks in America are all of the pin-tumbler type, which essentially provides "security theater"-level protection. They are very easy to pick with very little skill or specialized tools required, and most of them can be even be bumped in 5 seconds. [1] When people got concerned about the security of pin-tumbler locks, American lock manufacturers generally did not move to more secure lock types (or, if some did, they were probably outcompeted by other companies), they just added various extra "security features" on top of the fundamentally broken mechanism. Some of those "security features" are able to stop a curious 12-year old who spent 4 hours learning lockpicking on youtube, none of them will actually do much to deter a professional. On the positive side, pin-tumbler locks are really cheap and easy to use. My native Finland has mostly standardized on Abloy's (now part of Assa Abloy) disc-detainer style locks. [2] They are somewhat more expensive than pin-tumbler style locks, but are dramatically more secure. This is because they typically have many orders of magnitude larger key spaces, and are designed in such a way that it is very hard to get feedback by manipulating the lock. They, too, can be picked, but this generally requires hard-to-acquire specialized tools, a very high skill level and a lot more time than weaker locks. They are hard enough to pick that if you lock yourself out, and don't have the coding of the lock stored somewhere, you basically cannot hire a locksmith to pick the lock for you -- you just have to break into your house some other way. Why have Abloy locks not been a runaway success in America, replacing all the insecure locks? It turns out that the security of a lock really does not matter. Almost all American home locks are comically weak, yet almost no criminals ever pick or bump locks. So the additional security doesn't actually buy you much, if anything. However, Abloy locks have real disadvantages. For one, they require much more fine machining, which makes them more expensive. On top of that, they are somewhat more complex to use, as the locks have no internal springs (which is part of what makes them secure), so the lock has some persistent state or "memory". If the lock has last been normally locked or unlocked, you can just insert the key, turn, and pull it out. However, if I insert the key fully, and then extract it slightly, turn a little, and then fully pull it out, you can only insert the key up to that same point, and you then have to turn it straight before you can insert it further. If I do this individually to every disc with different rotations, it's going to take you a while. This can happen on it's own for, say, a padlock on a container that jostles as it's being transported. Everyone in Finland learns how to open a scrambled Abloy lock with the key right about at the time they get their first key, and most of us probably don't actually think of this as a skill, but do you want to try selling these locks to people who were not just taught how this works by their parents? So why did Finland standardize on such an expensive, idiosynchratic lock type? It was invented by a Finnish company, their manufacture was domestic, and there were periods when Finland was really starved for foreign currency. It's all network effects from there. But yeah, every now and then there is a news story or a paper of how you can open an American door lock by 3d-printing a key or by sound or by whatever exotic method. These news are always stupid because you can already open the lock by gently tapping it, so why waste your time with the tech? [1]: A video of an 11-year-old kid at defcon learning to bump a lock after a few minutes of teaching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5fLgxqWvJQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5fLgxqWvJQ [2]: http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Disc-detainer http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Disc-detainer
- Uberphallus 6y ago
  Came here to praise disc detainer locks. It's the only major type of lock I haven't been able to pick within a reasonable timeframe. Normally once you learn how to pick a certain model of lock, another lock of the same model will fall within 10 min, broadly speaking, and most cheap locks in just seconds. Disc detainer lock's design just prevents you from freely accessing each of the discs except with specialized tools, and there's no feedback from any spring, so there's no "touch" or "feeling" you can learn. That leaves to brute force all "combinations" from the innermost to the outermost disc as the only way to pick it. In a 8 disc, 4 "angle" lock like the one I have to practice, that means 4096 combinations. With a very optimistic 1 sec per combination, on average you need 34 minutes per lock. At that point it's less suspicious to use a drill or an angle grinder to open what you want to open.
  - hipokampa 6y ago
    You would have to be very unlucky to take 34 minutes[1]. After mere 75 tries (seconds) the chances are >50%. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem
    - speakeron 6y ago
      The birthday problem isn't applicable here, because you're trying to match a specific combination rather than looking for any matching pair. So the average number of attempts needed is indeed 4096/2. This is the same as the difference between a preimage (specific input) attack and a collision (any pair of inputs) attack on a hash algorithm[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preimage_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preimage_attack
- timonoko 6y ago
  Original Abloy was incredibly easy to pick. I remember seeing weird-looking generic Abloy-opener in 1957 when a lock-smith opened our door in about 5 seconds. Then Abloy changed the tensioning disk from front to back. And nowadays the tensioning disk is some random disk. But still no problem to Lock-Picking Lawyer or some other Youtube star.

Are non-American locks better? Why would American locks be worse?

by amock 6y ago

Are non-American locks better? Why would American locks be worse?

At least in France, dimple locks (keys have holes instead of teeth) are more common and feel more secure, even though they can still be lockpicked.

Polylactic_acid 6y ago
Most of the dimple locks I have seen can be opened with just a rake and 2 seconds time.
- Uberphallus 6y ago
  Most dimple locks in Europe won't open by raking because they also carry spools.

donw 6y ago

Dimple locks are exceedingly common here in Japan, and German padlocks (Abus, etc.) are generally considered what you want to buy if you're actually trying to secure something. The thing is, those locks are more expensive to produce, both in terms of metallurgy and skilled labor. Germany has done a solid job of ensuring that it retains local experience in both areas, through a combination of tariffs, a robust skilled-trade education system, and consumer preference for domestic goods. American consumers, on the other hand, tend to be very price-sensitive, and Master locks are cheap. That's not to say that there aren't some rock-solid American locks, but Germany and Japan tend to be the leaders here (and for the same reason) If you're keen to learn more about locks and security, I suggest having a look at LockPickingLawyer on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm9K6rby98W8JigLoZOh6FQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm9K6rby98W8JigLoZOh6FQ

Tuna-Fish 6y ago

Most countries/regions tend to "standardize" almost all common locks to one type, which all the local locksmiths learn to work with and sell, and which all the people in that area learn to operate. The actual level of security or cost of the lock type seems to be insignificant, it's all just network effects. The most common locks in America are all of the pin-tumbler type, which essentially provides "security theater"-level protection. They are very easy to pick with very little skill or specialized tools required, and most of them can be even be bumped in 5 seconds. [1] When people got concerned about the security of pin-tumbler locks, American lock manufacturers generally did not move to more secure lock types (or, if some did, they were probably outcompeted by other companies), they just added various extra "security features" on top of the fundamentally broken mechanism. Some of those "security features" are able to stop a curious 12-year old who spent 4 hours learning lockpicking on youtube, none of them will actually do much to deter a professional. On the positive side, pin-tumbler locks are really cheap and easy to use. My native Finland has mostly standardized on Abloy's (now part of Assa Abloy) disc-detainer style locks. [2] They are somewhat more expensive than pin-tumbler style locks, but are dramatically more secure. This is because they typically have many orders of magnitude larger key spaces, and are designed in such a way that it is very hard to get feedback by manipulating the lock. They, too, can be picked, but this generally requires hard-to-acquire specialized tools, a very high skill level and a lot more time than weaker locks. They are hard enough to pick that if you lock yourself out, and don't have the coding of the lock stored somewhere, you basically cannot hire a locksmith to pick the lock for you -- you just have to break into your house some other way. Why have Abloy locks not been a runaway success in America, replacing all the insecure locks? It turns out that the security of a lock really does not matter. Almost all American home locks are comically weak, yet almost no criminals ever pick or bump locks. So the additional security doesn't actually buy you much, if anything. However, Abloy locks have real disadvantages. For one, they require much more fine machining, which makes them more expensive. On top of that, they are somewhat more complex to use, as the locks have no internal springs (which is part of what makes them secure), so the lock has some persistent state or "memory". If the lock has last been normally locked or unlocked, you can just insert the key, turn, and pull it out. However, if I insert the key fully, and then extract it slightly, turn a little, and then fully pull it out, you can only insert the key up to that same point, and you then have to turn it straight before you can insert it further. If I do this individually to every disc with different rotations, it's going to take you a while. This can happen on it's own for, say, a padlock on a container that jostles as it's being transported. Everyone in Finland learns how to open a scrambled Abloy lock with the key right about at the time they get their first key, and most of us probably don't actually think of this as a skill, but do you want to try selling these locks to people who were not just taught how this works by their parents? So why did Finland standardize on such an expensive, idiosynchratic lock type? It was invented by a Finnish company, their manufacture was domestic, and there were periods when Finland was really starved for foreign currency. It's all network effects from there. But yeah, every now and then there is a news story or a paper of how you can open an American door lock by 3d-printing a key or by sound or by whatever exotic method. These news are always stupid because you can already open the lock by gently tapping it, so why waste your time with the tech? [1]: A video of an 11-year-old kid at defcon learning to bump a lock after a few minutes of teaching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5fLgxqWvJQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5fLgxqWvJQ [2]: http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Disc-detainer http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Disc-detainer

Uberphallus 6y ago
Came here to praise disc detainer locks. It's the only major type of lock I haven't been able to pick within a reasonable timeframe. Normally once you learn how to pick a certain model of lock, another lock of the same model will fall within 10 min, broadly speaking, and most cheap locks in just seconds. Disc detainer lock's design just prevents you from freely accessing each of the discs except with specialized tools, and there's no feedback from any spring, so there's no "touch" or "feeling" you can learn. That leaves to brute force all "combinations" from the innermost to the outermost disc as the only way to pick it. In a 8 disc, 4 "angle" lock like the one I have to practice, that means 4096 combinations. With a very optimistic 1 sec per combination, on average you need 34 minutes per lock. At that point it's less suspicious to use a drill or an angle grinder to open what you want to open.
- hipokampa 6y ago
  You would have to be very unlucky to take 34 minutes[1]. After mere 75 tries (seconds) the chances are >50%. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem
  - speakeron 6y ago
    The birthday problem isn't applicable here, because you're trying to match a specific combination rather than looking for any matching pair. So the average number of attempts needed is indeed 4096/2. This is the same as the difference between a preimage (specific input) attack and a collision (any pair of inputs) attack on a hash algorithm[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preimage_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preimage_attack
timonoko 6y ago
Original Abloy was incredibly easy to pick. I remember seeing weird-looking generic Abloy-opener in 1957 when a lock-smith opened our door in about 5 seconds. Then Abloy changed the tensioning disk from front to back. And nowadays the tensioning disk is some random disk. But still no problem to Lock-Picking Lawyer or some other Youtube star.