6 ms·

Most American locks just aren’t that secure; even I can pick a Masterlock #3 in a few minutes, and I’m a total novice at lock picking. A little bit of practice

Most American locks just aren’t that secure; even I can pick a Masterlock #3 in a few minutes, and I’m a total novice at lock picking. A little bit of practice and there’s a good chance you could pick most front doors in a few minutes. The simple reality is that if you’re going to get robbed, chances are the robber is going to use a pry bar to ruin the door jam or break your window. Locks are about keeping honest citizens honest.

jjeaff 6y ago
>locks are about keeping honest citizens honest I've heard that, and I get it, but I don't think that's actually it. Locks are about making it too inconvenient or risky to be worth stealing or breaking into. I guess some people might just all the sudden steal something if given the chance but would never do so otherwise, but usually, it's people who are already willing to steal if the difficulty and stakes are low enough.
- dec0dedab0de 6y ago
  I think the saying "locks keep honest people out" means that locks are there to keep out the overzealous girlscout selling cookies, that annoying friend who comes over when you dont text him back, and your neighbor that heard a noise and wants to make sure everything is ok.
  - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
    It also deters some dishonest people. A while ago my suburb was hit by a drug addict who moved in and would steal change/ipods from unlocked cars and tools from unlocked sheds. He never touched anything that was locked because the extra risk and effort wasn't worth it.
- kens 6y ago
  I agree that "locks keep honest people honest" is a nice but bogus sentiment. Bike locks are a clear counterexample. While a cheap cable lock will keep honest people honest, your bike will soon get stolen. A Kryptonite-style lock is kind of the minimum. But even those need constant upgrades as bad guys figure out how to pick them or freeze them with canned air. Thus, the goal of a lock is to make it not worth the effort for a thief, not to keep honest people honest.
  - SAI_Peregrinus 6y ago
    That and to provide evidence of forcible entry for insurance companies to pay out. It's easier to cut the lock off than to learn to pick most locks, so the victim can easily prove the theft.
- retsibsi 6y ago
  I don't know if this is actually true, but I've heard that it's partly about taking away plausible deniability (for people caught on another person's property). If you had to break something/pick a lock/climb through a window, it's hard to argue that you had no malicious intent and were merely trying to pay a visit, or that it was dark and you were a little bit drunk and you opened your neighbour's front door by mistake.
  - salawat 6y ago
    That reminds me of the time growing up that we actually had someone astonishingly drunk who ended up falling asleep in our unlocked minivan because he completely screwed up navigating home and apparently we had the same type of van he did. Mom was not at all amused at the time, but the more I think about the implementation of car locks (most share key cuts), the more I find the entire thing somewhat amusing in hindsight.
amock 6y ago
Are non-American locks better? Why would American locks be worse?
- rockinghigh 6y ago
  At least in France, dimple locks (keys have holes instead of teeth) are more common and feel more secure, even though they can still be lockpicked.
  - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
    Most of the dimple locks I have seen can be opened with just a rake and 2 seconds time.
    - Uberphallus 6y ago
      Most dimple locks in Europe won't open by raking because they also carry spools.
- donw 6y ago
  Dimple locks are exceedingly common here in Japan, and German padlocks (Abus, etc.) are generally considered what you want to buy if you're actually trying to secure something. The thing is, those locks are more expensive to produce, both in terms of metallurgy and skilled labor. Germany has done a solid job of ensuring that it retains local experience in both areas, through a combination of tariffs, a robust skilled-trade education system, and consumer preference for domestic goods. American consumers, on the other hand, tend to be very price-sensitive, and Master locks are cheap. That's not to say that there aren't some rock-solid American locks, but Germany and Japan tend to be the leaders here (and for the same reason) If you're keen to learn more about locks and security, I suggest having a look at LockPickingLawyer on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm9K6rby98W8JigLoZOh6FQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm9K6rby98W8JigLoZOh6FQ
- Tuna-Fish 6y ago
  Most countries/regions tend to "standardize" almost all common locks to one type, which all the local locksmiths learn to work with and sell, and which all the people in that area learn to operate. The actual level of security or cost of the lock type seems to be insignificant, it's all just network effects. The most common locks in America are all of the pin-tumbler type, which essentially provides "security theater"-level protection. They are very easy to pick with very little skill or specialized tools required, and most of them can be even be bumped in 5 seconds. [1] When people got concerned about the security of pin-tumbler locks, American lock manufacturers generally did not move to more secure lock types (or, if some did, they were probably outcompeted by other companies), they just added various extra "security features" on top of the fundamentally broken mechanism. Some of those "security features" are able to stop a curious 12-year old who spent 4 hours learning lockpicking on youtube, none of them will actually do much to deter a professional. On the positive side, pin-tumbler locks are really cheap and easy to use. My native Finland has mostly standardized on Abloy's (now part of Assa Abloy) disc-detainer style locks. [2] They are somewhat more expensive than pin-tumbler style locks, but are dramatically more secure. This is because they typically have many orders of magnitude larger key spaces, and are designed in such a way that it is very hard to get feedback by manipulating the lock. They, too, can be picked, but this generally requires hard-to-acquire specialized tools, a very high skill level and a lot more time than weaker locks. They are hard enough to pick that if you lock yourself out, and don't have the coding of the lock stored somewhere, you basically cannot hire a locksmith to pick the lock for you -- you just have to break into your house some other way. Why have Abloy locks not been a runaway success in America, replacing all the insecure locks? It turns out that the security of a lock really does not matter. Almost all American home locks are comically weak, yet almost no criminals ever pick or bump locks. So the additional security doesn't actually buy you much, if anything. However, Abloy locks have real disadvantages. For one, they require much more fine machining, which makes them more expensive. On top of that, they are somewhat more complex to use, as the locks have no internal springs (which is part of what makes them secure), so the lock has some persistent state or "memory". If the lock has last been normally locked or unlocked, you can just insert the key, turn, and pull it out. However, if I insert the key fully, and then extract it slightly, turn a little, and then fully pull it out, you can only insert the key up to that same point, and you then have to turn it straight before you can insert it further. If I do this individually to every disc with different rotations, it's going to take you a while. This can happen on it's own for, say, a padlock on a container that jostles as it's being transported. Everyone in Finland learns how to open a scrambled Abloy lock with the key right about at the time they get their first key, and most of us probably don't actually think of this as a skill, but do you want to try selling these locks to people who were not just taught how this works by their parents? So why did Finland standardize on such an expensive, idiosynchratic lock type? It was invented by a Finnish company, their manufacture was domestic, and there were periods when Finland was really starved for foreign currency. It's all network effects from there. But yeah, every now and then there is a news story or a paper of how you can open an American door lock by 3d-printing a key or by sound or by whatever exotic method. These news are always stupid because you can already open the lock by gently tapping it, so why waste your time with the tech? [1]: A video of an 11-year-old kid at defcon learning to bump a lock after a few minutes of teaching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5fLgxqWvJQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5fLgxqWvJQ [2]: http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Disc-detainer http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Disc-detainer
SAI_Peregrinus 6y ago
> Locks are about keeping honest citizens honest. No, locks are about making forcible entry easier than covert entry, so that your insurance company pays out. The primary function of the lock is tamper evidence. The secondary function is deterrence (easier to get into an unlocked place than a locked one). Actually preventing entry isn't the point for any but the strongest locks, and even then they only serve to delay entry.
- ric2b 6y ago
  I don't think most people buy locks for that reason, they buy them because they think the lock is secure enough so that only serious criminals will do anything, and then they hope those criminals don't show up. Besides, a lot of locks are so easy to pick that you might as well do it instead of making a lot of noise forcing it open.

jjeaff 6y ago

>locks are about keeping honest citizens honest I've heard that, and I get it, but I don't think that's actually it. Locks are about making it too inconvenient or risky to be worth stealing or breaking into. I guess some people might just all the sudden steal something if given the chance but would never do so otherwise, but usually, it's people who are already willing to steal if the difficulty and stakes are low enough.

dec0dedab0de 6y ago
I think the saying "locks keep honest people out" means that locks are there to keep out the overzealous girlscout selling cookies, that annoying friend who comes over when you dont text him back, and your neighbor that heard a noise and wants to make sure everything is ok.
- Polylactic_acid 6y ago
  It also deters some dishonest people. A while ago my suburb was hit by a drug addict who moved in and would steal change/ipods from unlocked cars and tools from unlocked sheds. He never touched anything that was locked because the extra risk and effort wasn't worth it.
kens 6y ago
I agree that "locks keep honest people honest" is a nice but bogus sentiment. Bike locks are a clear counterexample. While a cheap cable lock will keep honest people honest, your bike will soon get stolen. A Kryptonite-style lock is kind of the minimum. But even those need constant upgrades as bad guys figure out how to pick them or freeze them with canned air. Thus, the goal of a lock is to make it not worth the effort for a thief, not to keep honest people honest.
- SAI_Peregrinus 6y ago
  That and to provide evidence of forcible entry for insurance companies to pay out. It's easier to cut the lock off than to learn to pick most locks, so the victim can easily prove the theft.
retsibsi 6y ago
I don't know if this is actually true, but I've heard that it's partly about taking away plausible deniability (for people caught on another person's property). If you had to break something/pick a lock/climb through a window, it's hard to argue that you had no malicious intent and were merely trying to pay a visit, or that it was dark and you were a little bit drunk and you opened your neighbour's front door by mistake.
- salawat 6y ago
  That reminds me of the time growing up that we actually had someone astonishingly drunk who ended up falling asleep in our unlocked minivan because he completely screwed up navigating home and apparently we had the same type of van he did. Mom was not at all amused at the time, but the more I think about the implementation of car locks (most share key cuts), the more I find the entire thing somewhat amusing in hindsight.

amock 6y ago

Are non-American locks better? Why would American locks be worse?

rockinghigh 6y ago
At least in France, dimple locks (keys have holes instead of teeth) are more common and feel more secure, even though they can still be lockpicked.
- Polylactic_acid 6y ago
  Most of the dimple locks I have seen can be opened with just a rake and 2 seconds time.
  - Uberphallus 6y ago
    Most dimple locks in Europe won't open by raking because they also carry spools.
donw 6y ago
Dimple locks are exceedingly common here in Japan, and German padlocks (Abus, etc.) are generally considered what you want to buy if you're actually trying to secure something. The thing is, those locks are more expensive to produce, both in terms of metallurgy and skilled labor. Germany has done a solid job of ensuring that it retains local experience in both areas, through a combination of tariffs, a robust skilled-trade education system, and consumer preference for domestic goods. American consumers, on the other hand, tend to be very price-sensitive, and Master locks are cheap. That's not to say that there aren't some rock-solid American locks, but Germany and Japan tend to be the leaders here (and for the same reason) If you're keen to learn more about locks and security, I suggest having a look at LockPickingLawyer on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm9K6rby98W8JigLoZOh6FQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm9K6rby98W8JigLoZOh6FQ
Tuna-Fish 6y ago
Most countries/regions tend to "standardize" almost all common locks to one type, which all the local locksmiths learn to work with and sell, and which all the people in that area learn to operate. The actual level of security or cost of the lock type seems to be insignificant, it's all just network effects. The most common locks in America are all of the pin-tumbler type, which essentially provides "security theater"-level protection. They are very easy to pick with very little skill or specialized tools required, and most of them can be even be bumped in 5 seconds. [1] When people got concerned about the security of pin-tumbler locks, American lock manufacturers generally did not move to more secure lock types (or, if some did, they were probably outcompeted by other companies), they just added various extra "security features" on top of the fundamentally broken mechanism. Some of those "security features" are able to stop a curious 12-year old who spent 4 hours learning lockpicking on youtube, none of them will actually do much to deter a professional. On the positive side, pin-tumbler locks are really cheap and easy to use. My native Finland has mostly standardized on Abloy's (now part of Assa Abloy) disc-detainer style locks. [2] They are somewhat more expensive than pin-tumbler style locks, but are dramatically more secure. This is because they typically have many orders of magnitude larger key spaces, and are designed in such a way that it is very hard to get feedback by manipulating the lock. They, too, can be picked, but this generally requires hard-to-acquire specialized tools, a very high skill level and a lot more time than weaker locks. They are hard enough to pick that if you lock yourself out, and don't have the coding of the lock stored somewhere, you basically cannot hire a locksmith to pick the lock for you -- you just have to break into your house some other way. Why have Abloy locks not been a runaway success in America, replacing all the insecure locks? It turns out that the security of a lock really does not matter. Almost all American home locks are comically weak, yet almost no criminals ever pick or bump locks. So the additional security doesn't actually buy you much, if anything. However, Abloy locks have real disadvantages. For one, they require much more fine machining, which makes them more expensive. On top of that, they are somewhat more complex to use, as the locks have no internal springs (which is part of what makes them secure), so the lock has some persistent state or "memory". If the lock has last been normally locked or unlocked, you can just insert the key, turn, and pull it out. However, if I insert the key fully, and then extract it slightly, turn a little, and then fully pull it out, you can only insert the key up to that same point, and you then have to turn it straight before you can insert it further. If I do this individually to every disc with different rotations, it's going to take you a while. This can happen on it's own for, say, a padlock on a container that jostles as it's being transported. Everyone in Finland learns how to open a scrambled Abloy lock with the key right about at the time they get their first key, and most of us probably don't actually think of this as a skill, but do you want to try selling these locks to people who were not just taught how this works by their parents? So why did Finland standardize on such an expensive, idiosynchratic lock type? It was invented by a Finnish company, their manufacture was domestic, and there were periods when Finland was really starved for foreign currency. It's all network effects from there. But yeah, every now and then there is a news story or a paper of how you can open an American door lock by 3d-printing a key or by sound or by whatever exotic method. These news are always stupid because you can already open the lock by gently tapping it, so why waste your time with the tech? [1]: A video of an 11-year-old kid at defcon learning to bump a lock after a few minutes of teaching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5fLgxqWvJQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5fLgxqWvJQ [2]: http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Disc-detainer http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Disc-detainer

SAI_Peregrinus 6y ago

> Locks are about keeping honest citizens honest. No, locks are about making forcible entry easier than covert entry, so that your insurance company pays out. The primary function of the lock is tamper evidence. The secondary function is deterrence (easier to get into an unlocked place than a locked one). Actually preventing entry isn't the point for any but the strongest locks, and even then they only serve to delay entry.

ric2b 6y ago
I don't think most people buy locks for that reason, they buy them because they think the lock is secure enough so that only serious criminals will do anything, and then they hope those criminals don't show up. Besides, a lot of locks are so easy to pick that you might as well do it instead of making a lot of noise forcing it open.