3 ms·

This seems to work on only the most basic of locks, and doesn't seem to address "Security Pins" or false pins (pins if you move, will seize the keyway), which w

by Alupis 6y ago

This seems to work on only the most basic of locks, and doesn't seem to address "Security Pins" or false pins (pins if you move, will seize the keyway), which will cause false sets, clicks, partial keyway turns, etc. They can be really nasty for an experienced lockpicker to navigate, and will make all the same sounds and feel of picking a real pin. Most semi-advanced locks will have one or more of these anti-picking countermeasures in place. As it is, it would be far faster to actually pick this lock instead of trying to reproduce the key.

nordsieck 6y ago
> This seems to work on only the most basic of locks, and doesn't seem to address "Security Pins" or false pins (pins if you move, will seize the keyway), which will cause false sets, clicks, partial keyway turns, etc. I don't see why either of those are relevant. A key in normal operation won't interact with false pins, and security pins (I assume you're talking about spools/mushrooms) act like normal pins to a key.
- thire 6y ago
  Agreed. These features are only relevant to picking, not to inserting the actual key.
- Zenst 6y ago
  You would get a different sound from the different types of security pins, but even then - not that many and as you say, as its the legit key being recorded - security pins won't do anything than act like a normal pin in operation. At least have an excuse for leaving the house with the radio blaring out now - security.
  - bszupnick 6y ago
    > You would get a different sound from the different types of security pins I'm not sure that's true...it may be true, but it hasn't been looked into. Also 99% of security pins are in the driver pins which aren't the actual pins that are making the clicking sound against the ridges. Since there is a set of pins (key pins) between the ridges and the security pins that could also "dull" the difference security pins change the sound. In the same vein, though, great locks can also use different springs for each set of pins which also may effect the sound.
    - Zenst 6y ago
      If I had a know security pin lock at hand, I'd check it out as have a few contact microphones that are perfect to delve into something like this. Certainly with spectrogram and zoom in after doing high quality recording and soon see what sticks out. Of course would really need a lock in which you have each type of security pin and a normal pin and change that one pin and compare several unlocking. I'd be supprised that there isn't some distinguishing aspect due to shape changes in the pin altering how it responds to vibration. Yes the springs will have some influence, a small scratch in the pin barrel would have a small nuanced effect that with with right measuring, would show up. I'll put it on my winter project list, more so as it may open up the possibility of not even needing a working key and just inducing some sympathetic harmonic with the pin types to induce resonance that can be measured. Could be a fun winter this year.
kazinator 6y ago
> the most basic of locks Which is what, oh, only what the vast majority of the people out there have on their front doors.
- mikepurvis 6y ago
  I think his point is that if the method only defeats basic locks, there's no point because basic locks can be reliably picked with $20 of tools and a few hours of YouTube tutorials and practicing. That's fair, of course, but the method is still interesting and novel, and may even have security implications if it can be evolved to target locks containing features beyond the basics.
  - kazinator 6y ago
    > basic locks can be reliably picked with $20 of tools and a few hours of YouTube tutorials and practicing. Not without spending time at the lock, performing an activity that is obviously criminal to any witness, and having to repeat that every time you want access to those premises. And, also: a neophyte lock picker will likely leave evidence, like scratches. If you have a key that works, you can open the lock without any traces of picking activity.
    - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
      And sitting next to the doorknob holding your microphone while someone walks in is totally legit. You aren't going to get a clean recording while hiding behind the fence.
      - craftinator 6y ago
        I have an esp32 board with a MEMS microphone embedded in it that's about the size of a quarter, and can be powered for hours with a watch battery. So yeah, I can get a clean recording while hiding behind a fence... I just won't be holding the microphone.
    - andykx 6y ago
ashtonkem 6y ago
Or even a good disc detainer lock, like an Abloy or similar, whose noise is more related to the current disc position more than anything else.

by Alupis 6y ago

nordsieck 6y ago

> This seems to work on only the most basic of locks, and doesn't seem to address "Security Pins" or false pins (pins if you move, will seize the keyway), which will cause false sets, clicks, partial keyway turns, etc. I don't see why either of those are relevant. A key in normal operation won't interact with false pins, and security pins (I assume you're talking about spools/mushrooms) act like normal pins to a key.

thire 6y ago
Agreed. These features are only relevant to picking, not to inserting the actual key.
Zenst 6y ago
You would get a different sound from the different types of security pins, but even then - not that many and as you say, as its the legit key being recorded - security pins won't do anything than act like a normal pin in operation. At least have an excuse for leaving the house with the radio blaring out now - security.
- bszupnick 6y ago
  > You would get a different sound from the different types of security pins I'm not sure that's true...it may be true, but it hasn't been looked into. Also 99% of security pins are in the driver pins which aren't the actual pins that are making the clicking sound against the ridges. Since there is a set of pins (key pins) between the ridges and the security pins that could also "dull" the difference security pins change the sound. In the same vein, though, great locks can also use different springs for each set of pins which also may effect the sound.
  - Zenst 6y ago
    If I had a know security pin lock at hand, I'd check it out as have a few contact microphones that are perfect to delve into something like this. Certainly with spectrogram and zoom in after doing high quality recording and soon see what sticks out. Of course would really need a lock in which you have each type of security pin and a normal pin and change that one pin and compare several unlocking. I'd be supprised that there isn't some distinguishing aspect due to shape changes in the pin altering how it responds to vibration. Yes the springs will have some influence, a small scratch in the pin barrel would have a small nuanced effect that with with right measuring, would show up. I'll put it on my winter project list, more so as it may open up the possibility of not even needing a working key and just inducing some sympathetic harmonic with the pin types to induce resonance that can be measured. Could be a fun winter this year.

kazinator 6y ago

> the most basic of locks Which is what, oh, only what the vast majority of the people out there have on their front doors.

mikepurvis 6y ago
I think his point is that if the method only defeats basic locks, there's no point because basic locks can be reliably picked with $20 of tools and a few hours of YouTube tutorials and practicing. That's fair, of course, but the method is still interesting and novel, and may even have security implications if it can be evolved to target locks containing features beyond the basics.
- kazinator 6y ago
  > basic locks can be reliably picked with $20 of tools and a few hours of YouTube tutorials and practicing. Not without spending time at the lock, performing an activity that is obviously criminal to any witness, and having to repeat that every time you want access to those premises. And, also: a neophyte lock picker will likely leave evidence, like scratches. If you have a key that works, you can open the lock without any traces of picking activity.
  - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
    And sitting next to the doorknob holding your microphone while someone walks in is totally legit. You aren't going to get a clean recording while hiding behind the fence.
    - craftinator 6y ago
      I have an esp32 board with a MEMS microphone embedded in it that's about the size of a quarter, and can be powered for hours with a watch battery. So yeah, I can get a clean recording while hiding behind a fence... I just won't be holding the microphone.
  - andykx 6y ago

ashtonkem 6y ago

Or even a good disc detainer lock, like an Abloy or similar, whose noise is more related to the current disc position more than anything else.