4 ms·

> Sounds like a tax like this would motivate him to work more not less. You frame this as though this is somehow beneficial to shareholders, but if that's the

by bhupy 6y ago

> Sounds like a tax like this would motivate him to work more not less. You frame this as though this is somehow beneficial to shareholders, but if that's the case, they can work out this arrangement themselves. Also the idea that SpaceX or Tesla would continue to be valued as highly as they are if he continuously relinquishes his ownership stake is also dubious.

triceratops 6y ago
> You frame this as though this is somehow beneficial to shareholders, but if that's the case, they can work out this arrangement themselves. I was showing how a wealth tax need not necessarily discourage endeavor and industry, as is commonly alleged. > Also the idea that SpaceX or Tesla would continue to be valued as highly as they are if he continuously relinquishes his ownership stake is also dubious. Why? I thought they were valued highly because of Musk's leadership, not ownership. Is that not the case? Even without his ownership stake, he can continue to be the CEO as long as the companies do well.
- bhupy 6y ago
  > I thought they were valued highly because of Musk's leadership, not ownership. Is that not the case? Even without his ownership stake, he can continue to be the CEO as long as the companies do well. That's not how publicly traded companies work. If a sufficiently motivated activist investor accumulates a large enough ownership, they can decide to fire Elon Musk — and there are enough people that would like to see this happen on account of his crazy tweets. That's the crux of the argument, that no matter how badly activists may want to remove Elon Musk as CEO, he's safe as long as he maintains his stake. A forced divestiture of that threatens his ability to maintain his leadership in those companies, and that's arguably not in the best interests of many existing shareholders today.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    > If a sufficiently motivated activist investor accumulates a large enough ownership, they can decide to fire Elon Musk If Musk is a value-add, they'd be tanking the value of their own holdings. If he's not, then why should he keep his job?
    - bhupy 6y ago
      Again, at the risk of explaining the basics of how publicly traded companies work...activist investors may disagree with other shareholders as to whether “Musk is a value add”. It’s not some objective truth, it entirely depends on what the majority shareholder thinks. Today, that happens to be Musk himself. Under a wealth tax, that’s no longer true.
      - triceratops 6y ago
        I'm aware of how publicly traded companies work. Activist investors don't take a majority stake, just one large enough to get a board seat or two (5% is considered the minimum in the US) and make some noise. Shareholders vote on whether to add newly-nominated board members, so if they think an activist investor intending to fire the CEO is not acting in their interest, they can vote against adding said investor to the board. If an "activist" investor actually bought 51% of the company (aka an "acquisition" or "takeover"), they would also own 51% of the downside of any CEO changes. At that point they have every right to decide what's in the company's interest. The company's shareholders can also vote on whether to accept the acquisition offer, which means dissenters who lose the vote can sell and get out if they disagree with the new owner's direction. For that matter, Elon Musk only owns 21% of Tesla right now[1], so if 51% of the board think he's a net-negative, he could go immediately. They clearly do not. 1. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/insights/052616/top-4-tesla-shareholders-tsla.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/insights/052616/top-4-...
        bhupy 6y ago
        > Activist investors don't take a majority stake, just one large enough to get a board seat or two (5% is considered the minimum in the US) and make some noise. Per-investor, yes — but multiple institutional investors can get involved with little intervention unless the founder holds at least a plurality. This is exactly why we're starting to see companies like Facebook and Uber issue class A shares. Travis Kalanick was, in theory, untouchable — he just didn't have the energy in him to fight the board after a personal tragedy. > For that matter, Elon Musk only owns 21% of Tesla right now[1], so if 51% of the board think he's a net-negative, he could go immediately. They clearly do not. Yes, and if he is forced to liquidate any more of his holding, he ceases to be a plurality. That's the point.

by bhupy 6y ago

triceratops 6y ago

> You frame this as though this is somehow beneficial to shareholders, but if that's the case, they can work out this arrangement themselves. I was showing how a wealth tax need not necessarily discourage endeavor and industry, as is commonly alleged. > Also the idea that SpaceX or Tesla would continue to be valued as highly as they are if he continuously relinquishes his ownership stake is also dubious. Why? I thought they were valued highly because of Musk's leadership, not ownership. Is that not the case? Even without his ownership stake, he can continue to be the CEO as long as the companies do well.

bhupy 6y ago
> I thought they were valued highly because of Musk's leadership, not ownership. Is that not the case? Even without his ownership stake, he can continue to be the CEO as long as the companies do well. That's not how publicly traded companies work. If a sufficiently motivated activist investor accumulates a large enough ownership, they can decide to fire Elon Musk — and there are enough people that would like to see this happen on account of his crazy tweets. That's the crux of the argument, that no matter how badly activists may want to remove Elon Musk as CEO, he's safe as long as he maintains his stake. A forced divestiture of that threatens his ability to maintain his leadership in those companies, and that's arguably not in the best interests of many existing shareholders today.
- triceratops 6y ago
  > If a sufficiently motivated activist investor accumulates a large enough ownership, they can decide to fire Elon Musk If Musk is a value-add, they'd be tanking the value of their own holdings. If he's not, then why should he keep his job?
  - bhupy 6y ago
    Again, at the risk of explaining the basics of how publicly traded companies work...activist investors may disagree with other shareholders as to whether “Musk is a value add”. It’s not some objective truth, it entirely depends on what the majority shareholder thinks. Today, that happens to be Musk himself. Under a wealth tax, that’s no longer true.
    - triceratops 6y ago
      I'm aware of how publicly traded companies work. Activist investors don't take a majority stake, just one large enough to get a board seat or two (5% is considered the minimum in the US) and make some noise. Shareholders vote on whether to add newly-nominated board members, so if they think an activist investor intending to fire the CEO is not acting in their interest, they can vote against adding said investor to the board. If an "activist" investor actually bought 51% of the company (aka an "acquisition" or "takeover"), they would also own 51% of the downside of any CEO changes. At that point they have every right to decide what's in the company's interest. The company's shareholders can also vote on whether to accept the acquisition offer, which means dissenters who lose the vote can sell and get out if they disagree with the new owner's direction. For that matter, Elon Musk only owns 21% of Tesla right now[1], so if 51% of the board think he's a net-negative, he could go immediately. They clearly do not. 1. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/insights/052616/top-4-tesla-shareholders-tsla.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/insights/052616/top-4-...
      - bhupy 6y ago
        > Activist investors don't take a majority stake, just one large enough to get a board seat or two (5% is considered the minimum in the US) and make some noise. Per-investor, yes — but multiple institutional investors can get involved with little intervention unless the founder holds at least a plurality. This is exactly why we're starting to see companies like Facebook and Uber issue class A shares. Travis Kalanick was, in theory, untouchable — he just didn't have the energy in him to fight the board after a personal tragedy. > For that matter, Elon Musk only owns 21% of Tesla right now[1], so if 51% of the board think he's a net-negative, he could go immediately. They clearly do not. Yes, and if he is forced to liquidate any more of his holding, he ceases to be a plurality. That's the point.