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> Fifth, the idea that people "will just move to another country" is very silly. If some people do leave, or start companies only in other jurisdictions, that j

> Fifth, the idea that people "will just move to another country" is very silly. If some people do leave, or start companies only in other jurisdictions, that just means there's a market opportunity for the many people who remain. You're just name-calling here, it's not "silly" just because you don't like the fact. If they leave, they actually leave, period. Sweden's left-wing majority abolished the inheritance tax(!) because so many wealthy people left because of it (among them, the famous IKEA founder). It's sad that your non-arguments and whinging are being upvoted by people who "feel" the rich ought to be taxed but refuse to think about the consequences.

ianmobbs 6y ago
It is silly. Your example isn't even about a wealth tax, it's about an inheritance tax. Sweden has a 30% Capital Gains tax (likely the vehicle for any form of future wealth tax) and seems to be doing much better than the US.
- defnotashton2 6y ago
  Not in terms of class mobility. Yes the floor is higher but try accumulating wealth in Sweden.
  - amiga_500 6y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index Sweden: 4th Usa: 27th
  - kybernetikos 6y ago
    Normally class mobility is not thought of as equivalent to accumulating wealth. In some ways they're almost opposites. Sweden typically ranks much higher on class mobility measures than the USA.
    - twblalock 6y ago
      > Normally class mobility is not thought of as equivalent to accumulating wealth. In some ways they're almost opposites. Accumulating wealth is the only way poor people can stop being poor. Of course it's related to class mobility.
      - kybernetikos 6y ago
        Sure, they're related, but they are not equivalent and even oppose each other in some ways. A society that emphasises wealth accumulation above all else will have the privileged accumulate so much wealth it'll be nearly impossible for the poor to catch up, no matter how talented or hardworking. One way of measuring class mobility is looking at your liklihood of finishing your life in a higher 'class' (variously definied) than you started it, or than your parents had. With that kind of measure, Sweden does extremely well. Certainly much better than countries like the USA, which arguably do emphasise making the accumulation of wealth (when you already have a lot of it) easier.
- settrans 6y ago
  Is that right? Sweden -- along with virtually all European countries other than Switzerland, Norway and Luxembourg -- have much poorer middle classes than most US states. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/if-sweden-left-the-eu-and-joined-the-us-it-would-be-the-poorest-u-s-state-below-even-mississippi/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/if-sweden-left-the-eu-and-joi... https://mises.org/wire/if-sweden-and-germany-became-us-states-they-would-be-among-poorest-states https://mises.org/wire/if-sweden-and-germany-became-us-state...
  - D_Alex 6y ago
    Not sure what you mean by much poorer... in any case here is a list of European countries which have a higher median wealth per adult than the US, roughly in order of wealth per adult: Switzerland, Iceland, Luxmbourg, Belgium, Ireland, France, UK, Spain, Austria, Italy, Malta, Norway. If you go by mean wealth on the other hand, only Switzerland is higher than the US. But that is not a measure of middle class wealth. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe...
    - jandrewrogers 6y ago
      A relevant factor is that the US has both a much higher income and a vastly lower savings rate than in Europe. Also, much of the wealth in Europe comes from hereditary property, which is not really a thing in the US. As a baseline, median Americans have much higher discretionary income than in Europe, so it is only savings habits that prevent many of them from accumulating wealth. Americans with savings rates that are comparable to Europeans end up accumulating tremendous wealth over their careers, even in the middle class. This is offset by the majority that spend every penny. That Americans don’t save their prodigious income is an unfortunate artifact of having multiple generations of nearly unbroken prosperity.
didibus 6y ago
This does seem a bit of a chicken and egg issue. If more countries followed suit, same as much of them followed suit on almost all other taxation schemes that were put in place in the past, then it's just a matter of time. And the US is not Sweden. If the US blocks your company's access to its market for leaving or not paying taxes, you'll most likely lose more money than the tax. Not saying I'm pro wealth tax, I'm still having to think about it, but I do feel the US is in a position to be able to protect itself from founders leaving.
patmcc 6y ago
I'm not saying that people won't leave, I'm sure some will. I'm saying worrying about some people leaving is silly. What disaster befell Sweden because the IKEA founder left?
- lazyjones 6y ago
  > What disaster befell Sweden because the IKEA founder left? It's not hard to figure out if you try to think about it in a curious, scientific manner instead of through your ideological glasses. Many wealthy people left and Sweden lost tax income, investments and angered people. To the point where the left-wing parties realized how bad an idea it was. https://iea.org.uk/blog/how-high-tax-sweden-abolished-its-disastrous-inheritance-tax https://iea.org.uk/blog/how-high-tax-sweden-abolished-its-di...
  - patmcc 6y ago
    An annual wealth tax of ~0.5% and a floor of ~$10million is very, very different than an inheritance tax of 30%, to the point that they're not even that comparable. So sure, I agree we shouldn't have a high inheritance tax.
    - lazyjones 6y ago
      > An annual wealth tax of ~0.5% and a floor of ~$10million ... is pointless, as it will just drive wealthy people away, into tax evasion schemes etc. while providing only tax income from the stupid. I'm in that bracket and if my country decided to introduce such a tax, I'd be somewhere else in the EU in no time. (still expecting a haircut-like single tax grab of 10% or more from our idiot government because of their ruinous Covid-19 politics though)
      - patmcc 6y ago
        Let's talk rough numbers - I'll assume you have a net worth of $15 million. You'd owe 0.5% on $5 million - $25k a year. That would be significant enough to move countries over? Completely upend your life, move kids out of school, buy/sell a home, etc.? It just doesn't seem reasonable to me.

ianmobbs 6y ago

It is silly. Your example isn't even about a wealth tax, it's about an inheritance tax. Sweden has a 30% Capital Gains tax (likely the vehicle for any form of future wealth tax) and seems to be doing much better than the US.

defnotashton2 6y ago
Not in terms of class mobility. Yes the floor is higher but try accumulating wealth in Sweden.
- amiga_500 6y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index Sweden: 4th Usa: 27th
- kybernetikos 6y ago
  Normally class mobility is not thought of as equivalent to accumulating wealth. In some ways they're almost opposites. Sweden typically ranks much higher on class mobility measures than the USA.
  - twblalock 6y ago
    > Normally class mobility is not thought of as equivalent to accumulating wealth. In some ways they're almost opposites. Accumulating wealth is the only way poor people can stop being poor. Of course it's related to class mobility.
    - kybernetikos 6y ago
      Sure, they're related, but they are not equivalent and even oppose each other in some ways. A society that emphasises wealth accumulation above all else will have the privileged accumulate so much wealth it'll be nearly impossible for the poor to catch up, no matter how talented or hardworking. One way of measuring class mobility is looking at your liklihood of finishing your life in a higher 'class' (variously definied) than you started it, or than your parents had. With that kind of measure, Sweden does extremely well. Certainly much better than countries like the USA, which arguably do emphasise making the accumulation of wealth (when you already have a lot of it) easier.
settrans 6y ago
Is that right? Sweden -- along with virtually all European countries other than Switzerland, Norway and Luxembourg -- have much poorer middle classes than most US states. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/if-sweden-left-the-eu-and-joined-the-us-it-would-be-the-poorest-u-s-state-below-even-mississippi/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/if-sweden-left-the-eu-and-joi... https://mises.org/wire/if-sweden-and-germany-became-us-states-they-would-be-among-poorest-states https://mises.org/wire/if-sweden-and-germany-became-us-state...
- D_Alex 6y ago
  Not sure what you mean by much poorer... in any case here is a list of European countries which have a higher median wealth per adult than the US, roughly in order of wealth per adult: Switzerland, Iceland, Luxmbourg, Belgium, Ireland, France, UK, Spain, Austria, Italy, Malta, Norway. If you go by mean wealth on the other hand, only Switzerland is higher than the US. But that is not a measure of middle class wealth. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe...
  - jandrewrogers 6y ago
    A relevant factor is that the US has both a much higher income and a vastly lower savings rate than in Europe. Also, much of the wealth in Europe comes from hereditary property, which is not really a thing in the US. As a baseline, median Americans have much higher discretionary income than in Europe, so it is only savings habits that prevent many of them from accumulating wealth. Americans with savings rates that are comparable to Europeans end up accumulating tremendous wealth over their careers, even in the middle class. This is offset by the majority that spend every penny. That Americans don’t save their prodigious income is an unfortunate artifact of having multiple generations of nearly unbroken prosperity.

didibus 6y ago

This does seem a bit of a chicken and egg issue. If more countries followed suit, same as much of them followed suit on almost all other taxation schemes that were put in place in the past, then it's just a matter of time. And the US is not Sweden. If the US blocks your company's access to its market for leaving or not paying taxes, you'll most likely lose more money than the tax. Not saying I'm pro wealth tax, I'm still having to think about it, but I do feel the US is in a position to be able to protect itself from founders leaving.

patmcc 6y ago

I'm not saying that people won't leave, I'm sure some will. I'm saying worrying about some people leaving is silly. What disaster befell Sweden because the IKEA founder left?

lazyjones 6y ago
> What disaster befell Sweden because the IKEA founder left? It's not hard to figure out if you try to think about it in a curious, scientific manner instead of through your ideological glasses. Many wealthy people left and Sweden lost tax income, investments and angered people. To the point where the left-wing parties realized how bad an idea it was. https://iea.org.uk/blog/how-high-tax-sweden-abolished-its-disastrous-inheritance-tax https://iea.org.uk/blog/how-high-tax-sweden-abolished-its-di...
- patmcc 6y ago
  An annual wealth tax of ~0.5% and a floor of ~$10million is very, very different than an inheritance tax of 30%, to the point that they're not even that comparable. So sure, I agree we shouldn't have a high inheritance tax.
  - lazyjones 6y ago
    > An annual wealth tax of ~0.5% and a floor of ~$10million ... is pointless, as it will just drive wealthy people away, into tax evasion schemes etc. while providing only tax income from the stupid. I'm in that bracket and if my country decided to introduce such a tax, I'd be somewhere else in the EU in no time. (still expecting a haircut-like single tax grab of 10% or more from our idiot government because of their ruinous Covid-19 politics though)
    - patmcc 6y ago
      Let's talk rough numbers - I'll assume you have a net worth of $15 million. You'd owe 0.5% on $5 million - $25k a year. That would be significant enough to move countries over? Completely upend your life, move kids out of school, buy/sell a home, etc.? It just doesn't seem reasonable to me.