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> While I wish organically growing food and conservation was the answer, its unfortunately not. I recently had a lengthy discussion with some friends about the

by TN1ck 6y ago

> While I wish organically growing food and conservation was the answer, its unfortunately not. I recently had a lengthy discussion with some friends about their support of a solidary organic farm, where you pay a flat fee per month and get a box of whatever they have in that week. It's really hard for most people to understand that things like these are not sustainable and that it's purely a luxury product. Terms like "organic", "no GMO", "local" sound sustainable as you imagine going back to "the good old days", but it's just impossible to feed the world. Even after I quoted some facts about the needed land usage for organic, it was not really possible to convince them, that it's not sustainable. If anybody has some good articles / studies about sustainable farming for the future, I would love to read them.

aqme28 6y ago
I think there are confused definitions for "sustainable." There's "sustains the land," which is food that can be grown this way indefinitely, which is what most people mean when they say "sustainable agriculture." To be more specific, "meeting society's present food and textile needs, without compromising the ability for current or future generations to meet their needs." You're saying sustainable as in "can sustain the future diets of 10 billion people." They don't map 1:1. TBH I think you're right. "Sustainable agriculture" isn't scalable to 2050 populations.
- kingraoul3 6y ago
  Cuba has already shown the World the way forward with their Green Revolution. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/the-good-life-in-havana-cubas-green-revolution-410930.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/the-good-l...
- kickout 6y ago
  It absolutely does. Do not bet against agriculture innovation. We have a comfortable head start and plenty in the pipe. The problem isn't exactly a secret. Multiple decade research projects focus on this and only this problem. We'll be okay (and sustainable too boot).
- TN1ck 6y ago
  You are right, I was focused on the sustainability to feed all the people with that method. From the comments here it seems I was a bit too pessimistic and that there are some working examples, pretty exciting! Probably have to get back to my friends, after I looked through the material.
fizzled 6y ago
There aren't any articles I can point you to, but I live in Portland, Ore., and between here and Vancouver and Camas, WA, there are a number of collectives that are doing exactly this. They don't publicize, it is word of mouth. They primarily focus on raising chickens and pigs, and butchering them for the members. All members participate somehow. Some members host the animals, others who cannot, contribute for feed and vet bills or participate in the slaughter days since it is a lot of work a few times a year. They are successful but are not capable of replacing 100% of the grocery needs. And vegetables only appear in the summer and can be subject to infestations or random die offs... although there is significant canning that takes place throughout the summer for the winter months. Growing a diverse amount vegetables to support 25-50 people is surprisingly more complex than raising livestock (unless you just want to eat lots of zucchini and squash ;-). However, there are many well documented small co-ops in Portland that I can refer you to if you want to ask them questions. These are very small farms, and in many cases people buy their shares of well in advance, and some have even become store-fronts rather than pickups. Here are examples of places within a 15 minute drive of where I live: When I used to eat meat I would buy half a cow with some friends friends. You could go visit the cow throughout the year: https://www.foodbevg.com/US/Scappoose/393417489771/All-Natural-Meats---Soggy-Feet-Enterprises https://www.foodbevg.com/US/Scappoose/393417489771/All-Natur... This place exploded in popularity in the past 7 years. It used to be two guys and you would order chickens months in advance and pick them up a day after the slaughter, now I can just walk into their store and they have a growing staff: https://www.marionacres.com/order https://www.marionacres.com/order Similarly: https://www.kookoolanfarms.com/ https://www.kookoolanfarms.com/ This dairy was a kickstarter, and I get milk, cream, and eggs from them year round, its fantastic. http://schochfamilyfarm.com/ http://schochfamilyfarm.com/ Lastly, Sauvie Island just outside portland has an enormous farm community where half of the year one can purchase all manner of fruits vegetables through multiple farmers market stands. Again though: it is only for part of the year, year round veggies are damn hard without large industrial apparatus. Unless you like pickled things. It can be done, but it takes a village. Seriously.
- fizzled 6y ago
  Oh, I forgot to mention one other weird thing: this isn't just liberals. There is a frightening large contingency of white supremacists who are into this, and a few showed up at Portland farmers market until they were outed. Regardless of how you feel about having racist nationalists selling next to hippies, self-sufficiency is quite a thing up here.
ip26 6y ago
The organic movement doesn't have to end with the whole world eating certified organic food to be successful. It can still serve as a standard bearer, leading a charge on a different way to do things- and industrial agriculture can take up some of its best ideas.

by TN1ck 6y ago

aqme28 6y ago

I think there are confused definitions for "sustainable." There's "sustains the land," which is food that can be grown this way indefinitely, which is what most people mean when they say "sustainable agriculture." To be more specific, "meeting society's present food and textile needs, without compromising the ability for current or future generations to meet their needs." You're saying sustainable as in "can sustain the future diets of 10 billion people." They don't map 1:1. TBH I think you're right. "Sustainable agriculture" isn't scalable to 2050 populations.

kingraoul3 6y ago
Cuba has already shown the World the way forward with their Green Revolution. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/the-good-life-in-havana-cubas-green-revolution-410930.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/the-good-l...
kickout 6y ago
It absolutely does. Do not bet against agriculture innovation. We have a comfortable head start and plenty in the pipe. The problem isn't exactly a secret. Multiple decade research projects focus on this and only this problem. We'll be okay (and sustainable too boot).
TN1ck 6y ago
You are right, I was focused on the sustainability to feed all the people with that method. From the comments here it seems I was a bit too pessimistic and that there are some working examples, pretty exciting! Probably have to get back to my friends, after I looked through the material.

fizzled 6y ago

There aren't any articles I can point you to, but I live in Portland, Ore., and between here and Vancouver and Camas, WA, there are a number of collectives that are doing exactly this. They don't publicize, it is word of mouth. They primarily focus on raising chickens and pigs, and butchering them for the members. All members participate somehow. Some members host the animals, others who cannot, contribute for feed and vet bills or participate in the slaughter days since it is a lot of work a few times a year. They are successful but are not capable of replacing 100% of the grocery needs. And vegetables only appear in the summer and can be subject to infestations or random die offs... although there is significant canning that takes place throughout the summer for the winter months. Growing a diverse amount vegetables to support 25-50 people is surprisingly more complex than raising livestock (unless you just want to eat lots of zucchini and squash ;-). However, there are many well documented small co-ops in Portland that I can refer you to if you want to ask them questions. These are very small farms, and in many cases people buy their shares of well in advance, and some have even become store-fronts rather than pickups. Here are examples of places within a 15 minute drive of where I live: When I used to eat meat I would buy half a cow with some friends friends. You could go visit the cow throughout the year: https://www.foodbevg.com/US/Scappoose/393417489771/All-Natural-Meats---Soggy-Feet-Enterprises https://www.foodbevg.com/US/Scappoose/393417489771/All-Natur... This place exploded in popularity in the past 7 years. It used to be two guys and you would order chickens months in advance and pick them up a day after the slaughter, now I can just walk into their store and they have a growing staff: https://www.marionacres.com/order https://www.marionacres.com/order Similarly: https://www.kookoolanfarms.com/ https://www.kookoolanfarms.com/ This dairy was a kickstarter, and I get milk, cream, and eggs from them year round, its fantastic. http://schochfamilyfarm.com/ http://schochfamilyfarm.com/ Lastly, Sauvie Island just outside portland has an enormous farm community where half of the year one can purchase all manner of fruits vegetables through multiple farmers market stands. Again though: it is only for part of the year, year round veggies are damn hard without large industrial apparatus. Unless you like pickled things. It can be done, but it takes a village. Seriously.

fizzled 6y ago
Oh, I forgot to mention one other weird thing: this isn't just liberals. There is a frightening large contingency of white supremacists who are into this, and a few showed up at Portland farmers market until they were outed. Regardless of how you feel about having racist nationalists selling next to hippies, self-sufficiency is quite a thing up here.

ip26 6y ago

The organic movement doesn't have to end with the whole world eating certified organic food to be successful. It can still serve as a standard bearer, leading a charge on a different way to do things- and industrial agriculture can take up some of its best ideas.